A fun video for you all! <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZnUakXSnsL4&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZnUakXSnsL4&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
I obviously cant speak for everyone, just my 2cents paranoia? maybe, but you will never know because you have never been in our shoes
And what do the Tibetans think? Have you been in the Tibetans' shoes? I totally agree that there has been a long history of western imperialism in China but that doesn't mean that the PRC is anymore justified in what it does in Tibet. Often the argument from the PRC side boils down to well the Western powers did it so now its our turn. The history of Western colonialism is tragic and deserves to be criticized. It doesn't mean it should be repeated. If you are talking about being in someone else's shoes I would suggest you read the post of the Tibetan poster rz04 in this thread and you will see he makes very reasonable demands and isn't out to destroy the PRC or a tool of the west but a person who is concerned about his people and culture.
But you weren't in anybodys shoes either. You weren't alive during the Opium wars - nor were your parents. Nneither was anybody who works at CNN. Criticism of China's policies has nothing to do with Western Imperialism - rather it's the same criticism that's leveled at everybody that is put on public display in our environment. Look at the amount of anti-Iraq war criticism in the US - it dwarfs the amount of criticism coming from abroad. If you can't handle criticism - then you should stay out of the spotlight. When China puts itself and its policies on public display it's going to draw criticism - something that it is not used to from its own state-controlled media which has insulated China and its citizens from harsher criticisms that western countries are regularly subjected to.
I just started posting in this thread, so I guess my position on the matter hasntt been established I believe that Tibetans has the right to protest, , I believe people from other countries who have done thier research (by research, I dont mean watching the news, I mean researching into both sides of the story) have the right to voice thier opinion. HOWEVER, I dont believe that those westerners who have only heard it on the news once, and think to themselves "gees, thats not fair" SHOULD protest, firstly because they know nothing about the situation, secondly because they are making it worse. Sure, free speech blah blah blah yada yada yada...just because we have the right to free speech, doesnt mean you should say everything that is on your mind. The chinese government is far from perfect. I am the first one to attest to that, however, which superpower government is? What do you prefer? THe chinese government, whom may possibly kill people in thier country? or The american government, who kill people in other countries? yet, somehow, the american government is seen as helping those people in need, while the chinese government is seen as violating human rights??? I dont think that there is a clear cut right and wrong answer. the truth lies in between what what the chinese government is reporting and what CNN is reporting, and all i want to bring to the table is some voice of reason ( i do try to be as objective as possible). Understanding is key to solving this problem.
Chinese government should be criticised, and I for one am glad they are been criticised. but the media (from the ones I have seen) have put a negative spin on not only the chinese government, but also the chinese people. thats where it becomes unfair, and thats what i am arguing for. THere is an inherent distaste in many people's mouth about chinese people, here in Australia. Yet these people know nothing about whats going on. They can criticise the government, but leave the rest out of it. Furthermore, I watch the olympics because its sports, its the only time that politics are not interwined into whatever I am watching. Its a symbol of unity. Yet these protests are making it into something that the spirit of the olympics is not all about. Which is why I think they are overdoing it.
If our Chinese posters are convinced that China is pursuing the moral path in Tibet and in the realm of civil liberties and personal freedom, why do they spend so much time defending their tact? A person or country that really believes it's right doesn't care about outside criticism. There is no need to confront your detractors. (i.e. George Bush, The Pope, Bill Belichick) A person or country in a position of power doesn't need to justify himself to those without influence. Vocal dissent and outrage are for the outsiders. Vocal defense is for those trying to mask their embarrassment or still convincing oneself of the position they have taken. I would suggest to you that no system is perfect and the way to change a system is from within. You should be posting in Chinese about the the Chinese system. Defending yourself here makes you look like you have an inferiority complex.
Thats quite funny there All I have said so far is to try to bring my personal viewpoint to the discussion board...this is a discussion board right? if every single one of my word is rephrased, interpreted and put into a different context, then I would certainly sound like a crazy person. There is a lot of hate, in many western countries, I am trying give reason to those who have no reason to hate. If i am a tibetan and the chinese government did that to me, I will do what it takes to get my point across. But if I am just some casual bystander, I would not "hate" an entire race of people, just because I feel that it is my moral obligation to speak out about someone else's problem, and put them down so i feel that I have achieved my moral duties
Furthremore, its a damned we do and damned we dont situation here for the government. China did rescue tibet from slavery and the rule of the various dai lama's who controled all the power, land and money. Normal tibetans at the time were slaves who had no right. You cant expect China to go in, help a country and just leave right? They would have tried to make the lives of those tibetans as best possible at the time, to integrate into the majority population. I dont think that they had an ulterior motive at the time. I mean thats what history has shown us right? White settlers invading the killing off the american indians white settlers invading and kiling off the aborigines, and trying to integrate them into the society thats how the human mentality is structured. Its not right, but its just the way it is, and I can guarantee that its not going to change unless all humans somehow get thier dna rewired Every single country that the US invaded, they tried to impose thier "way of life" right? and how did that pan out? Iraq 20 years ago, and Iraq now? Its all in the human nature.
Chinese Vice Chairman Kong Dian Kno comments on the Tibetian situation. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SypeZjeOrY4&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SypeZjeOrY4&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
The stupid Nazi-designed torch relay has NOTHING to do with sports at all. It was designed as an expression of Nazi supremacy for purely political purposes. IT should have been abandoned years ago. China's current version of it is not about sports either. Tabling the fact that it's a ridiculous waste of resrouces (the torch has its own plane - the torch's travel around the globe will produce many times more carbon emissions than I could in my entire lifetime) - China's plans to take the torch up to the top of mount everest/Chomolongma in another wasteful and risky gesture is nothing if not political.
Now do you guys see why people call them borgs and bots? This argument is CONSTANTLY brought up by PRCers, almost involuntarily This marks the 10 miillionth time in this thread that Chinese bring in shameful 19th century imperialist logic to justify 21st century behavior. Earth to China: It's 2008, not 1808.
So you think we should just ignore history? Have you thought that the reason this same fact has been brought up over and over again is because its a valid point? Okay, something closer to 2008 then, how about the Iraq war? Isnt America trying to turn Iraq into America? Hows that going on a scale of 1 to 10? Didnt the americans kill alot of Iraqis to get to that goal? and in the process, alot of americans died in the process? So is Iraq a much safer place now? Lets also try to understand that America went in there to get OIL. When the phrase "suicide bombing kills ..." is in the news everyday, and people are oblivious to it, you know that there is something inherently wrong.
So you are criticising traditions now? And you think its stupid, and it should be banned? Whoa you have alot of communism in you
Also before you call me a robot I just want to say that I spent 90% of my life outside of china, had my education outside of china in australia. So I am as unbiased as a chinese can be, so your "communism has brainewashed you" does not stand either. You cant just classify those who disagrees with you has "bots" My intellectual level is not too bad either, I am in the finance industry and have a job in one of the most competitive industries . Most people in my field would DREAM about getting my job. SO i guess that puts me up in the area of "people who actually has a brain and has his/her own opinion" yeah?
Quite the opposite - I am acknowledging our history. Past 19th century conduct by westerners (and conduct earlier than that by easterners) was a shameful disgrace that has no place in this era. That is why such conduct is no longer tolerated in this era, and in fact the US and Canada and other nations have tried to atone for it by recognizing native americans as sovereing nations and allowing them a substantial amount of self-government and autonomy. Is it just a gesture and are native americans largely still impoverished? Yes - of course, but its an important gesture that acknowledges the mistakes of the past nonetheless. China is the one who wants to ignore history here - and repeat it. How many other things does china want to repeat? Should you start importing african slaves too? How about anti-jewish pogroms? THere's all sorts of atrocities China missed out on.... China can behave like a 19th century imperialist all it wants - but it's going to be judged by 21st century standards. No, it's not. Not even close. While I oppose the Iraq war and always have, this is a truly terrible parallel.
well, for one thing, the US is not trying to annex Iraq and make it part of US territory, and populate it with Americans.
That argument doesnt work on a few levels 1. Iraq is no way near America, if it was next to america and if it possessed so much oil and where american troops freely roamed the place, and where Iraq and Americans looked very similar, and where Americans actually wanted to go live there if a chance or incentive is given, and if Iraq and America had a very long history in the past of been under the same rule, I will be very very hesitant to say that Bush or whoever would not do the same thing. 2. By the way, tell me, Why did China overthrow the Tibetan government? was it for oil? Nope, was it because Tibet had alot of gold and riches? Nope. So why did they? Political reasons? very possibly, but that is no way as bad as invading another country so you can steal thier natural resources At the end of the day, it comes down to this. Multicultural countries such as America will find it very hard to understand "single-cultured" countries ie countries with a dominant culture. In the past, Tibetans had no freedom, and no living standard Now they have no freedom, but they do have a source of livelihood If we use the Soviet debacle as an example, many of those people in countries that were part of the soviet union, have gained thier freedom, but they have barely enough to eat and live off. Unfortunately, in this era, You cant achieve both.
