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2 Dead as Protests Break out in Tibet

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rocketsjudoka, Mar 14, 2008.

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langal Member

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yuantian said:

you are basically contradicting yourself. if as you claimed that US is all about freedom of everything, then you should allow communism. people here have the rights to beleive whatever they believe in. if you want to ban communism, then don't claim you have freedom of whatever.
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you just don't get it. you can stay in America if you are a Communist.

however if yer not white and a Communist, then GTFO!!!

#901 langal, Apr 9, 2008

michecon Member

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I　love bigotry.

#902 michecon, Apr 9, 2008
yeo Member

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MR. MEOWGI said:

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass thoroughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.
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Well, China is my country, as well as America. I am a first-gen immigrant. And the reason I am staying in America is simple, I am making more money here. And I see no problem with my loyalty to China as well as allegiance to the US. If the Jews can support Isreal, why cann't we support China?

As for your second paragraph, it's too idiotic for comment. What are ya, twelve?

#903 yeo, Apr 9, 2008
langal Member

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yeo said:

Well, China is my country, as well as America. I am a first-gen immigrant. And the reason I am staying in America is simple, I am making more money here. And I see no problem with my loyalty to China as well as allegiance to the US. If the Jews can support Isreal, why cann't we support China?

As for your second paragraph, it's too idiotic for comment. What are ya, twelve?
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I wouldn't bring up Jews.

Lots of bigots hate them more than they hate us.

#904 langal, Apr 9, 2008
jli Member

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langal said:

LOL

so i was born here but because i disagree with you i should leave?

I know you're white and thus more "American" than me but can i still visit from time to time?
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I think samfish is British. But MR. MEOWGI is definitely a white American because he fits the profile of a redneck.

#905 jli, Apr 9, 2008
longhornchampno Member

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MR. MEOWGI said:

You shouldn't give a damn about China because it isn't your country. If you spazed out freaks love it so much you would have never of left it. But China sucks so you had to come here and we were nice enough to let you in. But now you bad mouth "the west" because China's brainwashing was brutal and you still have to tow the line.

America and true Americans are against China's polices towards Tibet. We despise communists and those who support them. If you do support them, get ready to have your ass thoroughly kicked. It will not be tolerated.
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If anyone doesn't agree with you in a political issue then he is brainwashed and has to leave. Your view is facist and totalitarian. You have no concept of democracy and freedom. And I am waiting for SamFisher to link you to the Nazi.

#906 longhornchampno, Apr 9, 2008
MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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langal said:

LOL

so i was born here but because i disagree with you i should leave?

I know you're white and thus more "American" than me but can i still visit from time to time?
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If I was in charge, no way. But the liberals would cry that their commie brethren couldn't come in.

#907 MR. MEOWGI, Apr 9, 2008

MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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longhornchampno said:

If anyone doesn't agree with you in a political issue then he is brainwashed and has to leave. Your view is facist and totalitarian. You have no concept of democracy and freedom. And I am waiting for SamFisher to link you to the Nazi.
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We kick both NAZI and COMMIE ass. They are both equally evil.

#908 MR. MEOWGI, Apr 9, 2008
langal Member

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jli said:

I think samfish is British. But MR. MEOWGI is definitely a white American because he fits the profile of a redneck.
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i don't really have too much of a beef with SamFisher. he's been here a long time and i think he's more anti-PRC than anything else.

#909 langal, Apr 9, 2008
clutch11 Member

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MR. MEOWGI said:

We kick both NAZI and COMMIE ass. They are both equally evil.
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But were defeated by Chinese in both Korea and Vietnam.

#910 clutch11, Apr 9, 2008
langal Member

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MR. MEOWGI said:

If I was in charge, no way. But the liberals would cry that their commie brethren couldn't come in.
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i'm a registered GOP here in cali. heck i saw Reagan's casket. nice try though.

#911 langal, Apr 9, 2008
rfila Member

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jli said:

I think samfish is British. But MR. MEOWGI is definitely a white American because he fits the profile of a redneck.
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I doubt it. I was wondering if this MR. MEOWGI is "Tnese". He doesn't fit in any category of American based on my own experience in this country. His problem with China is not his brain, but his hate deep inside of his heart for whatever reason.

#912 rfila, Apr 9, 2008
MFW Member

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KingCheetah said:

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A KingCheetah self portrait.

SamFisher said:

MFW - KingCheetah's last offering has plunged you into severe, crippling face debt.

You are the Bear Stearns of face loss, and there is no Federal Reserve Bank of Face willing to bail you out.

You need to declare face bankruptcy and end this charade, once and for all.

CHAPTER 7
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It's kinda hilarious, it's always the idiots that declare self victory.

Here is SamFisher for ya:

SamFisher said:

The Olympic torch relay is a Nazi-invented tradition dating back 1936, invented to promote racial superiority.

No, seriously, it is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7330949.stm

Smart move of the Chinese to take a symbol with that kind of history and make it into a nationalist rallying cry around an authoritarian regime. Real smart.
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Why bother with obscure Nazi references when you can have proven ones?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_IohMUWaY

National Geographic series, now banned at the behest of the "Free" Tibet lobbyist groups.

#913 MFW, Apr 9, 2008

Dubious Member

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cshen said:

Hey. my comment about north americans are regarding to his comment about olympic torch relay.
but if you really wanna what's with china. let me tell you.
China has recovered from culture revolution 30 years ago, changing itself froma a chaotic communist nation to a strong economic country. How long does it take US to do that?
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Well, not 3,000 years. Maybe 150 years..1750-1900.

Man, I hope you don't get in any trouble for your bold criticism though, you really examined China's dirty laundry there. Very introspective.

#914 Dubious, Apr 9, 2008
yuantian Member

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Dubious said:

Well, not 3,000 years. Maybe 150 years..1750-1900.

Man, I hope you don't get in any trouble for your bold criticism though, you really examined China's dirty laundry there. Very introspective.
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oh? so you are saying, yall went from being primitive in 1750 to modern in 1900? i guess we like it early and enjoy the ride.

#915 yuantian, Apr 9, 2008
yeo Member

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Damn this guy has some great insights. Too bad people like him are few and far between in the west.

[Interview with the renowned German best-seller author, documentary film producer and Asia specialist Frank Sieren, who's been living in China for nearly one and a half decades.]

The West has ceased to impress China a long time ago.

April 4, 2008.

[translated by Wild Goose Journal from German into English]

Q: Is Tibet becoming a turning point for Chinas development?
A: It's not a turning point, but simply a tragedy. It seems that most
of the individuals involved have lost sight of the concerns of the
Tibetan people. We may debate about their degrees of involvement in
this disaster, but we should name them first: The government in
Beijing with its relentless, excessive policy of assimilation; then
the Dalai Lama as the head of an exile government, who time and again
tries to politicize his meetings with Western politicians, thus to
suggest latitude which doesn't really exist when it comes to the
crunch.

Q: But there are also other players...
A: If you are talking about the young rioters - they remind me rather
of their contemporaries in the burning suburbs of Paris than of
the demonstrators in Tiananmen Square in 1989. With their senseless
violence against Chinese retailers they have created tailwind for the
hardliners in Beijing and brought the majority of the Chinese totally
against themselves. On the issue of Tibet, the position of the Chinese
leadership coincides with that of the large popular majority. We in
the West tend to sweep this fact under the carpet.

Q: How do you assess the position of the German government?
A: Chancellor Merkel, who's taken the risk of provoking the Chinese
leadership with her reception of the Dalai Lama, in order to score
political points domestically with a romantic sentiment towards Tibet
that has never existed in Tibet itself, has sent careless signals to
the Tibet movement, promising far more than she can hold. Now she's
burnt her fingers, Merkel won't be receiving the Dalai Lama again. In
this crowd of egomaniacs, we also shouldn't forget the great number of
Western journalists, blended by their own self-overestimation, with
their sometimes manipulative, agitating reports.

Q: Wasn't the rebellion in the oppressed Tibet just due?
A: The question must be, was it useful? Anyone who knows even a little
about the Chinese leadership would come to the conclusion that there's
never been the slightest chance for a rebellion to turn things to the
better. The result is shocking and it was foreseeable. Tibet's
latitude was never narrower than today, and it will stay this way for
the foreseeable time. And the threat of boycotting the Olympics
doesn't help, neither. The reformers within the leadership who propose
a more liberal handling of Tibet cannot score points; the hardliners
who claim the West is using Tibet to destabilize China see themselves
in upwind. The more wildly the West gesticulate, the narrower the
latitude for the reformers. We tend to forget that the greatest
changes in the Middle Kingdom have always come from within.

Q: When people in the West talk about China, there's always either
great euphoria or total aversion. Why such extremes?
A: Because there's an epochal change taking place. Ever since the
discovery of America by Columbus the West has dominated. Wherever
the conquerors went, they were able to force the people to play by
their rules. Now, that's no longer tenable. Nations like China are
going their own and very successful way. Many in the West are
fascinated by that dynamics, by the modernity, by how fast those
people are able to leave poverty behind them.

Q: And how is the aversion to explain?
A: At about the end of the nineties the fear came along - the worry of
having to share, the worry that our financial margins would decrease;
that resources would become more and more expensive, and our values
would loose importance; that more and more jobs would drift to China
or Asia and our social standards would no longer sustainable.

Q: Aren't those fears justified?
A: They would be if you believe because of our own natural supremacy
we don't have to do anything. We have to consider what we can still
manufacture in the West and what we no longer can; which of our values
are convincing, which not. What's new is that we can no more simply
command when it comes to the question of what we consider good and
right, instead we have to persuade and compromise. We have to
reposition our way of thinking. That's difficult and it will take a
few generations.

Q: And what if that doesn't succeed?
A: Then we will fare similarly as the nobility of the nineteenth
century. It succumbed to the deceptive belief that the uprising of the
new class were a win-win development. But their exclusive position
could not hold. In hindsight we see it as a natural development. More
and more people were able to participate in decision-making and
advance. What happened then on the level of national states are now
taking place on a global level. And because we are affected ourselves,
our imagination isn't reaching far enough. Future generations,
likewise, will see the relativization of the West as normal and
desirable.

Q: Are we doomed to fall?
A: No. My only concern is that due to our arrogance and self-assurance
we wouldn't take on this issue. It's strange - watching from afar, the
Germans don't appear to be self-doubting, but rather tend to consider
themselves the center of the world's civilization.

Q: Do the Chinese see us that way?
A: The young outgoing Chinese for instance are amazed that we have a
democracy that is thwarting itself - one that hardly allows progress
because it's stuck in the unbelievably complex process of finding
compromises.

Q: Does it mean authoritative regimes like the Chinese one are better
equipped for today's challenges?
A: It simply means that there are badly functioning democracies and
well functioning dictatorships. Even though we don't like it, China is
by far the most successful development project in the latest history
of the world, and it isn't surpassing its peak for a long time yet.
Never before has so many people wrest themselves from poverty.

Q: How do you explain this ascent?
A: To put it blatantly, there are three methods to gain power in the
world: merchandises, arms and values. Value is a jurisdiction for the
Pope or the Islam. The traditional method is the force of arms - war.
However, since the fifties of the twentieth century, that has become
less and less promising - what an incredible advancement! The Korean
War was a turning point - it ended with a stalemate. Almost all wars
raised by the Americans after that either failed or ended without a
clear victory. Slowly it shows that in an era of globalization,
cleverly built trade relationships promise more political influence
than military actions. That's what the Chinese have specialized on -
partly due to weakness, because their army is antiquated, and partly
due to cleverness, because they are traditionally good merchants. They
don't conquer, but create dependencies - containers don't come across
as threatening.

Q: How does it work?
A: They have developed two methods. One I'd like to call the
"concubine economics". Because with their combination of size, price
and logistical agility, they offer the best manufacturing conditions
worldwide for things ranging from bathing shoes to airplanes, they can
afford to pick whom they want to work with. Western businesses have to
court their Chinese partners like the concubines once did their
emperor. The concubine economics brings China the world's highest
foreign investment of more than 60 billion US dollars each year and
the highest trade surplus of nearly 300 billion. The second method is
the "Mother Courage economics". The Chinese help mismanaged
countries, like those in Africa, by building their infrastructures
cheap and fast and then running them, in order to receive long-term
resource contracts in return. If the customer is satisfied - which
usually is the case - long-term political alliances emerge across
continents, shifting the global structures in favor of the developing
countries.

Q: Do you have an example?
A: Take Nigeria. The Chinese say, you have a railway built by the
British and out of maintenance for a hundred years. We'll invest 8
billion US dollars in those tracks. We don't do it out of
selflessness, for we want to buy your minerals and we'll have to
transport them. You can decide for yourselves whether half of the
workers will be locals or only a third. If you insist on half, it will
take twice as long.

Q: You have written that the Chinese are dictators towards the inside
and democrats towards the outside. What do you mean by that?
A: What they want towards the inside is - partly out of conviction
that this were crucial for China's stability, partly for the sake of
power preservation - that democracy be introduced as late as possible.
Towards the outside, the Chinese leadership is already saying, we
represent 1.3 billion people, and we advocate a new world order in
which the original principle by the Europeans apply: "one man, one
vote". In this sense they are the advocates of the largest
co-determination movement in the human history.

Q: How can the Chinese people itself gain influence?
A: Through an unwritten contract with their leadership. If it fails to
improve people's lives, the contract will be cancelled and people will
take it to the street: 10, 20 or 100 million of them. That would be
something different than a rebellion in Tibet, which altogether is of
no importance to China. The fear of such an eruption forces the
leadership to exert itself. It's a mistake to think dictators wouldn't
be under any pressure.

Q: So, are you talking about the breaking point where the China
project could fail?
A: The big question is whether China manages to develop an economic
system that doesn't consume as much resources as it's happening with
us. The Chinese are standing in front of the challenge which even the
West was unable or unwilling to solve. And we should do whatever we
can to help, instead of pointing fingers at China, for a Chinese
environmental disaster would affect all of us. Also crucial would be
the question whether they manage to gradually allow more participation
in decision-making, because in the end that has to be there. However,
it would be certainly unwise to introduce a democracy to the Western
standard.

Q: Why?
A: Because you can only campaign on the same level as the voters, so a
whole bunch of little Maos would be running. A large portion of the
rural population is very traditional. There would speeches to make our
hair stand on end, and then I'd like to read the Western media reports
on that.

Q: In other words, many Chinese are not yet ready for a democracy?
A: The difficult task is to find the right moment for the introduction
of democracy.

Q: How do the young generations see it?
A: The young Chinese have an almost post-modern relationship to
politics, like many young people in Germany. They say, what do I care
about this circus, I'm the captain of my own life and that's that.

Interviewer: Marcus Engler
Click to expand...

#916 yeo, Apr 9, 2008
Dubious Member

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yuantian said:

oh? so you are saying, yall went from being primitive in 1750 to modern in 1900? i guess we like it early and enjoy the ride.
Click to expand...

The US (not me or we) went from a rural backwater to a world economic power in that period. But the again the advatnages of having a an ambitious pioneering, capitalistic people set loose on an abundant, sparley inhabited continent, allied with the current world super power after 1815, is unprecedented in world history.

Granted it's much harder to transition a mature, over-populated fuedal society in to a modern economic power....but it still doesn't mean it has to be done under an autocratic system in the 21st century. The people should have input on the course of their lives.

I'm not even sure it's a worthwhile goal. Sewing elastic in underwer for 10 hours a day so you can live in a 500 square foot apartment probably isn't a better life than living in the familial heirachy of a rural agrarian economy.

Modernization can be de-humanizing.

#917 Dubious, Apr 10, 2008
yuantian Member

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Dubious said:

The US (not me or we) went from a rural backwater to a world economic power in that period. But the again the advatnages of having a an ambitious pioneering, capitalistic people set loose on an abundant, sparley inhabited continent, allied with the current world super power after 1815, is unprecedented in world history.

Granted it's much harder to transition a mature, over-populated fuedal society in to a modern economic power....but it still doesn't mean it has to be done under an autocratic system in the 21st century. The people should have input on the course of their lives.

I'm not even sure it's a worthwhile goal. Sewing elastic in underwer for 10 hours a day so you can live in a 500 square foot apartment probably isn't a better life than living in the familial heirachy of a rural agrarian economy.

Modernization can be de-humanizing.
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no, you guys had all the connection from europe. it aint like yall started from scratch. you are basically discounting i don't know how many years. makes me wonder how some people think around here.

#918 yuantian, Apr 10, 2008

bdk Member

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SamFisher said:

The interesting part about the effectiveness of Chinese state brainwashing is how remarkably consistent it is and how passionately its proponents believe it - i guess it is difficult to repudiate your whole reality after you have fled your home country and are in a strange land.
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Tell me why you think other people were brainwashed. Just because they have different opinion with you. Take one step back, think about it again, are you 100% sure the information you got is truth? What about both sides need to listen to voice from the other side? Maybe you only see one side of a wall. Given the fact is there is no tight restriction of information access as you thought in China. At least, every person can read CNN BBC's website without any obstacle. Try to spend sometime for your vacation in China, you will see a different world that CNN told you. If you just don't have time or interest to do this, just want to blame a country thousands of mile away from you and you have never been in, at least you can visit the website www.anti-cnn.com. Start to discover another side of the wall.

#919 bdk, Apr 10, 2008
zazahan Member

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These videos might have already been posted. Just in case some of you haven't seen them.

Tibet: Australian tourist Michael Smith filmed riot.
and provided most of the segments to ABC News in Australia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GEW2tXV4Vw

Tibet Diary：Tibet in Two Americans' Eyes
(Won 2004 AURORA AWARDS)
http://newschecker.blogspot.com/2007/12/tibet-diarytibet-in-two-americans-eyes.html

A story on the event from the Economist, whose correspondent happened to be in Lhasa.
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823

From another Canadian tourist's blog describing what he saw:
http://kadfly.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-from-lhasa.html

Another video on the event (warning: violence)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLzKBvvGMg

A video clip on Tibet history made by a Hollywood company.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

A little history of Tibet by Michael Parenti, a Ph.D. in political science from Yale University.
http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html#019

A book on Dalai Lama by a German writer, translated into English.
http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/SDLE/

Of course, there are more videos on youtube.

It never harms to take some time reading and watching.

#920 zazahan, Apr 10, 2008

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