Yah... You apparently didn't read the article very well if you think they are the source. Radio Free Asia list 15 unconfirmed deaths, but the headline of 8 comes from several sources like The Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy among several others. But as you undoubtedly learned from the CPC, like why let facts get in the way? Find a nice red herring like the CIA to blame everything on in order to distract everybody from looking for the truth.
I'd like to give a shout-out to my good friends Jingjing and Chacha. They are well-known to our Chinese internet surfing friends, no doubt they have been through these parts, and may even be here now! Ni hao my friends!
Right to the source alright. One helluva source. Freetibet.org, aka the group that doesn't even operate in Tibet. There's 10 minutes I'll never get back. Funny thing, I read the article seriously too. I see an article full of allegations and little evidence. Hell, the "Tibetan teacher" in the article even stated outright that he can't tell Tibetans from Hans. This part right here is my favourite line: Easily able to tell who lies? Indeed. Perhaps Sammy, you would like to point out the literacy and educate rate in Tibet before them Chicoms moved in. Why do I distinctly remember it being a huge laggard relative to other Chinese provinces? Who lies indeed. Oh the irony, it's killing me with laughter. I've read the article quite well. Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy may not have made the claim, but "London-based Free Tibet Campaign and the International Campaign for Tibet," as well as Radio Free Asia did. All three were mentioned in the article. And while we are splitting hairs, it would do you well to note that Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy DID NOT claim eight protestors were shot in the riots. Here is what it alleged: Who didn't read the article well indeed. Hilarious. As for Chinese media, one doesn't expect them to be completely forthcoming, so one read between the lines. However, as I've stated already, they do not have a habit of outright lying. Those "Free Tibet" groups ironically, do. Know who else lies? Sammy. But that was a given. Another would be you. I'm more worried about the CIA phone taps. My wife made a naughty phone call to me the other day, now the defenders of freedom know my dirty little secrets.
REALLY??? Perhaps you should send them an email so they can remove the story from their website. I'm sure they will appreciate you pointing out that they aren't really claiming what they are claiming in an article that they posted on their own website and they will remove it immediately. If you say so it must be an error. Good thing you are here to tell them what to claim and believe, like the good Chinese big brother. source [rquoter] At least eight shot dead in Tongkor Monastery in Kardze In the latest case of Chinese shooting Tibetan protesters in Tibet, at least eight Tibetans were known to have been shot dead after People's Armed Police (PAP) and Public Security Bureau (PSB) fired live ammunition onto the protesting crowd consisting of monks and laypeople on 3 April 2008. The protest broke out when monks of Tongkor Monastery (Ch: Donggu) in Zithang Township, Kardze County, Kardze "Tibet Autonomous Prefecture" ("TAP"), Sichuan Province, called for the release of two monks arrested for objecting Chinese 'Patriotic Education' campaign the previous day, according to confirmed information received by the Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD). There are reports of scores of Tibetans injured and arrested after the protest and police firing. The official mouthpiece, Xinhua, admitted the incident took place but described it as 'riot' mentioning only the injury of one government official and did not mention about deaths, arrests and injuries among the Tibetan protesters. According to reliable sources, the protest flared up at Tongkor Monastery in Zithang Township, Kardze County on 2 April with the arrival of official 'work team' to enforce a "Patriotic Education" campaign - a political indoctrination session that requires monks to denounce the Dalai Lama and to oppose the ongoing protests. The chief monk of Tongkor Monastery, Lobsang Jamyang did not cooperate with the work team during the campaign. Yeshi Nyima, a monk protested against the campaign which was later joined by other monks of the monastery who refused to cooperate with the official work team by telling, "we cannot criticize the Dalai Lama even at the cost of our lives." But the next day the work team returned to the monastery with hundreds of PAP and PSB officials ransacked monks' residences looking for photos of the Dalai Lama, confiscated photos of Tongkor head lama, Tongkor Shabdrung, mobile phones and other belongings. Eyewitness said, PAP and PSB arrested an elderly monk Geshe Tsultrim Tenzin, in 70's and a lay person Tsultrim Phuntsok, 26. Subsequently, more than three hundreds strong monastic community marched towards local county government headquarters to demand their release that was later joined by hundreds of laypeople. The group left after being told that the two monks would be released at 8:00 p.m. but returned after officials fail to deliver their promise. On their way, they were confronted by heavy presence of PAP and PSB officials which later turned into scuffle between the police forces and the protesters, with police forces firing shots into the protesters, killing at least eight Tibetans and injuring dozens of people. According to sources, those killed in the shooting include: Zangden, monk, 27 years old from Tsangyoe Village, Phurbu Delek, 30 years old, Tseyang Kyi, 23 years old female, Druklo Tso, 34 years old, female from Gugra Village, Tenlo, 32 years old female from Gugra Village and identities of three could not be ascertained at the moment. Three monks, Nyima, Kalpo a.k.a Kabhuk and Thupten Gelek originally from Sheru Village and monks of Tongkor Monastery sustained bullet injuries and are known to be in critical condition. Other reports cited the death of at least eight Tibetans after the shooting. There is no information on the whereabouts of Tsewang Rinzin, a disciplinary master of Tongkor Monastery. The Chinese authorities in recent weeks have stepped up a constant vilification campaign against the Dalai Lama with virulent rhetoric in an attempt to undermine Tibetans loyalty to the Dalai Lama. The reinvigoration of "patriotic education" in the monastic institutions is the point in case. In a similar incident in August 2007, when Ronggye A'drak a 52-year-old Tibetan nomad staged a peaceful solo protest in Lithang County during the annual horse race festival, the "Patriotic Education" campaign, which attempts to undermine Tibetan loyalty to the Dalai Lama, was stepped up even more across Lithang area in Kandze "Tibet Autonomous Prefecture" ("TAP") and cases of arbitrary arrests surfaced from the area after Tibetans openly opposed the campaign. TCHRD condemns in strongest terms the Chinese security forces' brutal use of force on the peaceful Tibetan demonstrators. TCHRD also call upon the PRC government to release all those Tibetans who have been arrested and detained for exercising their fundamental human rights enshrined in the UDHR, constitution and many other international covenants and treaties that she is party to. The Centre also calls upon the PRC to immediately put an end to "Patriotic Education" campaign across all religious institutions in Tibet. The government of the PRC should ensure that arrestees are not subjected to ill treatment and torture which are common features in Chinese administered detention centres and prisons in Tibet. The Centre will update on the situation as and when more information surfaces from the area. [/rquoter] Unlike you, I am not willing to laugh. Willful stupidity and hate that results in loss of human life is sad to me, even when laced with irony.
I'm sorry, but I'm still laughing. This article which you just posted now is not the same one that you posted on the last page. So I'm afraid that it has nothing to do with "good Chinese big brothers" or my reading skills and everything to do with your pathetic inability to cite your sources properly, something which I unfortunately find quite common with your kind. Perhaps then that if you say something along the lines of my not reading the article, you'd quote the right one. And when it's all said and one, those shootings are still allegations, not proofs.
Ok. Now I'm laughing at you. Nice rationalization of why your untrue statement is actually true. Your capacity for self-deception is strong. Did you or did you not write? You made the statement without qualification. Is that or is that not an untrue statement?
I will tell you what, there is nothing on this earth that I would like to hear more than the erotic phone calls of Emperor MFW and MFW tai tai....
i have no clue what u just type has anything to do with answering my questions, so i will just repost my questions and i want simple answers from you, PLEASE: I thought u said there are ZERO teachings of Tibetans in state run school and now u said the PRIMARY language of instruction is mandarin? So that means you do know they teach Tibetan as a second language right? Of course the PRIMARY language of instruction is Mandarin because the official language IS Mandarin. Should the public school in Texas teach the Hispanic students in Spanish? NO, if the Hispanic and the Tibetan students want to succeed in their countries they MUST learn the official language. that doesnt mean they cannot speak Spanish or Tibetan at home or to their friends. SamFisher please show me the law that bans the teaching of Tibetan.
some where out there, the police, the FBI and the CIA are checking our internet traffic to make sure there are no illegal activities planning like looting banks and planning to randomly attack certain group of people. you just dont hear it often. say hello to Mr. Policemen and Ms. Policewomen
Rationalization indeed. The problem is, I am not the one rationalizing. You are. In post #633 you stated: After I questioned the legitimacy of Tibetan exile groups claims, you stated in post #641: I read that article. I read it quite carefully too. Then I read it again. And nowhere IN THAT ARTICLE, which you claimed that I didn't read, did it claim that TCHRD claimed eight were shot dead by Chinese security forces. It did claim that two monks committed suicide. And like I said, if anything, it demonstrates your pathetic inability to cite properly. As a matter of fact, we don't even know there are eight, or any for that matter. Even your own article stated "It was impossible to verify the information since Chinese authorities have banned foreign reporters from traveling to the region." While on the other hand I've quoted at least one third party source that casts doubt on those claims. According to Sammy the liar, spying and internet tapping in China is a human rights abuse, but spying and phone tapping in the US is protecting national security. Good to know.
^LOL @ Chinese posters claiming that they enjoy more civil liberties than us. I guess that's why you guys still live in China.
Yawn. If you had said 'the article makes no specific claims about Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy saying 8 dead' you might have a legitimate argument. Instead, you made a blanket claim about the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy. When confronted, you applied your rationalization. If you had even said, 'well I apologize it was unclear, what I really meant was the article it never specifically mentions Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy and the claim of 8 dead', then you could be considered a rational human being overcoming a minor technical point. Instead, you dug in your heels and made all sorts of ridiculous rationalizations. In any case, what the article does say is, "Police fired on hundreds of protesters in a Tibetan area of western China, killing eight people, overseas activist groups said." It never specifically mentions any groups in association of the claim of 8 dead. It, however, does go on to list various tidbits of information from various 'overseas activist groups' including Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy. 5 seconds of internet research, however, revealed the answer. I apologize if it was too much to expect you to be able to do your own checking. The point where you weren't reading was clearly where you try to pin it all on your big bad American nemesis Radio Free Asia, when they didn't make the claim of 8 dead and do not qualify as an 'overseas activist groups' as indicated in the first paragraph. If your standard were applied universally, we would have to eliminate about 99% of the posts in this thread, as they all include information which is external to the articles which they follow. For instance, I see no books on the Chinese History of Tibet posted in this thread. Therefore, using your logic, we can not rationally discuss or conclude that Tibet was ever under the control of China. It wasn't posted in any reference articles before it was entered into conversation, so it didn't happen. That is just as silly as your claim here. That you are unable to give ground on the most minor, unimportant, and obvious instances of your being wrong is telling. You are so rigid in your opposition to your perceived 'opponents' that I could say, 'The sky is blue' and you would fight tooth and nail to 'prove' that statement false.
What's this? Another strawman? Shocking. As far as I can tell, no Chinese posters here actually claimed that China enjoys more civil liberties than the US. On the other hand though, many American posters claimed that the US enjoys civil liberties, a free country. I guess that they are rather embarrassed to be caught with their pants down. In regards to the article which you posted, and in which you suggested I didn't read, it was clear the context in which I was describing. As a matter of fact, after I quoted the exact claims by TCHRD in the article, I even said: Hardly rationalization on my part, but all your inability to cite. I'm sorry, those "Free Tibet" groups claim so many deaths (what is it, 150 now) that I stopped checking somewhere around the 60th mark. And why should I? After all, they are all the same. "Security forces shot dead unarmed peaceful protestors in (name a location)." No pics, no proof, no independent verifications. Just tell me the total and be done with it. But your post is once again, highly ironic. First you lambast me for not separating TCHRD from those other "Free Tibet" groups, which in all fairness, it is one. Then you chastise me for separating the claims of TCHRD from the claims of all those other groups when it suits you, based on an article you've chosen? Somewhere, somehow, Dalai is snickering behind all this. See above. I think your claims, juxtposed to your posts, is comedy of the highest order. You and your croonies (SamFisher, Deckard, Dubious, to name a few) have gone out of your way to discredit Chinese posters as brainwashed, "Chinese big brothers," etc. Hell, you've gone out of your way to lambast even non-Chinese academia who have arguments remotely in favour of the pro-Chinese view, hence, diverges from your "mainstream" one. Right now, for example, I'm still waiting for Sammy Fisher to prove that Barry Sautman is a hack job instead of just calling him a hack job. No no no. I'm a realist. As I've said, I think the CCP is in Tibet for China's best interest, not necessarily exclusively for Tibetan interest, as is the way it should be. I've also stated quite clearly that I'm not here because I expect to change anybody's mind, because your ilk are incapable of such, because your mind is already made up before you've done your "research," and are merely finding whatever oval pieces that suit your pre-set round hole. No, like I said, I'm here to call Sammy Fisher a moron and a liar when he invariably does.
Flee? Why would I flee? But please do answer my questions. Your conviction and sources are soooooo strong I didn't think you'd drag your feet: Specifically I'm waiting for three things: 1. Headcount that there are 3 million ethnic Hans in Tibet 2. Tibetan is not taught in schools in Tibet 3. Sautman claimed Tibetans are running prostitution joints
The difference between you and me is that I voted against GWB (twice) and doanted a bunch of $$ to his opponents. Did you vote against Hu Jintao? Or did you vote with your feet - when you fled China to come live as our guest?
He can't, let's end his lies once and for all: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99feb/tibet.htm Excerpts: Some more:
No, the real difference between you and me is I'm after my own interest plain and simple and make no attempt to hide it. On the other hand you are after your own interest plain and simple and try to distort the message as if you are some believer of freedom. As for being in the US, you'd do well to note that I've lived (I define that as 6+ months) in about 10 different countries, this may or may not be the last stop. Traveling used to be a big thing for me, though not as much any more.
