Francis isn't quicker than Marbury. Marbury goes around him like he is just one of many. Marbury is much stronger than Francis. Francis is only a better leaper but not by much. Marbury didn't dunk as often in the last 2 seasons to rest his ankles but everyone who has followed the NBA the last years knows his vertical isn't much worse than Francis. Besides that Kidd was better when he was in Phoenix. He had better stats and more wins. And it wasn't 1 game that seperated Phoenix and Houston. It was 3. Phoenix tanked the last 3 games of the regular season because they were already set as a 8th seed. Argueing that if the Rockets won one more winnable game puts them in the playoffs is a joke. You could say the same thing about Phoenix making the playoffs by larger margin. Especially since Phoenix had a better record against +500 teams than against -500 teams. You also got one game from the refs against the Clippers late in the season.
I find it hard to believe that people are really arguing two things: 1. That Bibby is better than Francis. He's not. He's a decent distributor of the ball on a great team. He had one good playoffs year. Yippee. So has Austin Croshere. One of the most overpaid players in the NBA. 2. That Francis has really improved that much in the last 3 years. Very good player - absolutely. But improving? I think he's a tiny bit better in distribution. But I don't think his shooting, dribbling, or defense is much better. It's one thing to say "I think Francis is quite good." Another thing entirely to say he's gotten much better recently. Three years ago, the general consensus on this board was that Francis was the 2nd - 4th best PG in the league. That consensus hasn't changed. If anything, there are fewer saying he's the best and more that wouldn't even put him in that range.
i always wonder what to think about this. when i think of him now, he doesn't seem much different than the guy who was playing at the end of his rookie season except he might be a tiny bit better at passing and he can finish better b/c he's stronger. but in most ways, he's the same. but then i think, he's one of only two people along with kg to be 20/6/6 (though kobe only missed by 0.1 ast) and i think only kobe, tmac, and kidd (maybe payton) were close to being in the 20/6/6 category. so if he hasn't improved but his play/stats put him up there with those guys (though not all the way up there), then was he just too damn good as a rookie for his own good? maybe he should've just stopped at like 16/5 his first year to give him more room to grow. either way, it's nice he's as good as he is. mike bibby, lol.
Exactly my view on Francis today! To rephrase what haven said... I think Francis is quite good, but... ...he hasn't gotten that much better [since his rookie season]. I'm not saying that he hasn't improved at all? But as you said, his passing has improved a little bit. Now, 50/50 "fault" goes one half to Francis (Francis's view on what makes a "complete basketball player;" especially a PG.). Dear Mr. Francis: Dunking all the time does NOT make a *compete basketball player.* And the other "fault" goes to Rudy; ISOs and 3-pointers only offense. That was a basketball "marriage" made in HELL! Rudy expected Francis to be a "ready made" veteran that could think up an offense for Rudy on the the fly. That's why he just let Francis loose expecting him to know what he was doing. Secretly, Rudy probably prayed that no one would figure out that he had NO CLUE about designing an offense that didn't depend on letting your "best player" go ISO all the time, or a bunch of role players standing out on the 3-point line. To make matters worse, Rudy's rules on discipline were as lax as a YMCA gym. And Francis expected Rudy to be a mentor that could teach him the intricacies of the game (Francis just did what Rudy told him to, expecting more teaching, but never got it). They were both wrong for each other. Help us, JVG! Please?
If you look at last year's efficiency rankings, Steve was second among PG's behind Kidd. The ER's take every single stat into consideration, good and bad, and Steve still finished second, so yeah, I think he does deserve to be top 10. Plus, people in this thread seem to be forgetting once again that Jason Kidd did lead the league in Turnovers per game, but that's the main thing people always want to count against Francis...
Just B, you forget one single important "fact." Kidd's assist per game average. You forget to mention that Kidd has averaged nearly 9.5 assist his whole career, while maintaining that 3.4 turnover average (3.7 last year, just like Francis). But Francis only gets 6.4 assist average (6.2 last year) while maintaining the SAME 3.7 turnover average. All you are doing is taking the whole of some "efficiency" stat and then stating "See, he's an "efficient" guard." Not true. That's like comparing a A, B and C student. And saying that because the C student is close to the B and A students that he's nearly as good. Sorry, but the whole the player is still a C average player. Those small percentages make a BIG difference on the court. And please don't bring up the stance that the reason that Francis has a lower assist average is because he shoots more than Kidd. That's not the issue. Look at Payton, he was able to maintain a 8-9 assist per game for six years, while achieving a crazy low 2.5 turnovers per game. Oh, and he averaged over 20 point per game too! That's efficiency! While Kidd has stated that the one of the reasons that he's such a good passer is because that practice that skill A LOT! But that's not to say that he's a bad scorer. Payton on the other hand practiced both passing and scoring skills. So, it's not asking too much to learn both. ESPN did a short story on the emergence of Steve Nash as a scorer after moving from Phoenix to Dallas. Nash wanted to be what he called the "perfect point guard." That is, a John Stockton type PG. That's his words. Nelly didn't want him to play that style. He wanted Nash to become more a scorer and less a passer. Nash didn't buy it at first. But as time went on he started to see the benefit of being able to do both passing and scoring well. Nash was already proficient in passing. His scoring ability was dormant. Nash'es only limitation is his athletic ability, or lack thereof. He'll never be as fast as Maurbury or as high a jumper as Francis. But he has been able to compete as the highest level by being a "complete basketball player." That means that if Francis can learn to do both passing and scoring while maintaining a low turnover average, he'll be more dangerous, more unstoppable, more dominant than Nash is today. The sky would be the limit on how good Francis could be. Remember, points alone do not define a point guard. Or as Yoda would say, "Points alone, point guard, define do not."
