It's pretty sad that we saying Steve is good because he is up to Marbury's level. That sucks. Just last year everyone took it as fact that Steve was better than Marbury.
It just goes to show the difference a season can make. Hopefully next year we'll be saying that Steve is up there with Kidd...you never know.
pgabriel, Yes, time/experience is important...but check this out... Marbury in NJ sucked just like Francis is sucking today. But his 2nd year in Phoenix (his 7TH season), Marbury turned the corner. He "got it." He just played smarter. All this due to him working out in the off-season with trainers on improving his PG role. He's stated this in SLAM! Mag. He was sick and tired of Kidd getting all the press on the NJ/Phoenix deal. There was a visible change in his game. HE DECIDED TO DO THIS! If he never made that decision to improve his total game, he would have been languishing in Phoenix today. Francis has yet to "get it (dedicate himself)" He's not there yet. Now, to be fair, Francis has only FOUR years NBA experience (starting his 5th), but he also has less time to prove himself compared to Marbury. According to a pattern created by Marbury...Marbury turned the corner at the beginning of his 7TH YEAR. Francis is starting his 5th (Marbury, his 8th). Just some history...Iverson and Marbury were drafted 1996. Iverson born 1975. Francis and Marbury born in 1977. So yes, Marbury has 3 more years experience than Steve. BUT, Francis started his career at 22. Marbury, 19!!! Marbury has two things going for him: He entered the NBA young (at 19), and he decided to dedicate himself at 25/26 years old. Francis is running out of time. If Francis was to follow Marbury's foot steps (in terms of his total game development) he'll be 29/30 years old before that happens. So either Francis has to get "better" real quick, or we'll be waiting until he's 29/30. My expecations of Francis this year are low. But my expectations on "team" improvement are better; due to JVG, i.e., no more Rudy.
pgabriel, You see, we'll never agree on who had the better supporting cast last year, and we'll never agree on who had the better 4th season. Simply because we don't go by statistics, and there's no other way to prove it. However, all I need to know is that Marbury became better than Steve last year not because Steve sucked...but because Steve stayed the same, and Marbury improved dramatically. The playoffs were NOT Marbury vs. Steve...The game was "who can lead his team to the playoffs now?" If Steve's the better talent, then he should've shouldered more of the pressure. If he's the betetr leader, he should've made his teammates better. Look at both their stats starting from the final Housont-Phoenix meeting, and you'll know what I'm talking about. Stephon Marbury is a better player than Marbury. Whether he was in his 4th season, or whether he had a better supporting cast will forever be up for debate and will never reach an end. However, last season Marbury showed that he's better than Steve. I can't see any logical way you can argue with that.
Gary Payton averaged only half a point per game less than Steve last year, while putting up 2 more assists (with 1.3 fewer TOs) and shooting for a higher FG%. Oh yeah, and he has actually heard of the term defense before. Yeah, I would say he is better than Francis. The only things Francis is really better at than his peers are rebounding and dunking, not exactly the foundations of a great guard (point or otherwise).
So a dramatic improvement for Marbury is 2 games better than Steve with similar teams. 2 whole games is a DRAMATIC improvement. By your logic, if the Rockets win 1 more game and Phoenix loses one more game, and the Rockets make the playoffs, then Steve has made a DRAMATIC improvement and turned the so called corner. That's ridiculous. Your basing your whole analysis, of one player "finally getting it" or making a DRAMATIC improvement on a 2 game swing with similar teams. I could see if Phoenix won 50 games, then I would agree that Marbury has made a tremendous leap over Steve, but I'm not going to say he made a DRAMATIC improvement. And again, Marbury needed three years of extra experience to make this so called DRAMATIC improvement.
pgabriel, If you can't see that Marbury made a dramatic improvement over Steve, FOR WHATEVER REASON, then this argument is dead.
It's got nothing to do with games won. Stephon put that team on his back and carried them. In Houston, we were sluggish, Steve was inconsistent. We had no game plan, no leaders. Even if the Suns didn't make the playoffs, I think Stephon still would have gotten a newfound respect. I was the biggest Stephon basher before, (and I still don't really like him, I expect some regression this year) but he improved a lot compared Steve last year.
Of course it doesn't, because people who constantly criticize ignore the fact that Steve has actually had two winning seasons in 4 years including one season of being injured. Compare Steve's second season in the league to Marbury's second or better yet, just compare their 00 - 01 seasons. As Xiki already stated, I trust Steve more than Starbury. In my opinion, Steve has only had one sub-par season, not including injuries, this past one, and the Rockets still won 43 games in his sub-par year. So by that logic, it takes Marbury to have a vast improvement to win 1 more game than Steve in Sub par year so Steve must be a lot better.
You have to seperate Rockets vs Suns from Marbury vs Francis. It's not the same argument. We ddin't lose any players to injury last season, while the Suns rarely had Googs off their bench, and lost Penny for 20 games. Why are you so stuck in your own opinion? Why must you FORCE the notion that Steve is better than Marbury, when he's clearly not? Sub par year? Are you kidding me? Why the hell did he have a subpar YEAR? You have subpar games, maybe months, but 82 games of sub-par is a WHOLE lot. Marbury has NEVER averaged less than 7.6 assists. Has Steve EVER averaged that? Marbury 4th year: 22.2ppg, 8.4asst, 3.6TO Francis 4th year: 21ppg, 6.2asst, 3.69TO Marbury last season: 22.3ppg, 8.1asst, 3.25TO Francis last season: 21ppg, 6.2asst, 3.69TO Marbury best season: 23.9ppg, 7.6asst, 2.94TO Francis best season: 21.6ppg, 6.4asst, 3.8TO, 7reb Francis has never made the playoffs, while Marbury has done just that. In fact, he LED his team to the playoffs on HIS back. Even if we make the playoffs next season, it will be because Yao shouldered more of the load, and I'm comlpetely fine with that. However, Francis wasn't able to do what Marbury did with a similarly talented, yet more injury prone, squad. Here's the Nets squad from Marbury's time: Marbury, Williams (out), Kittles (out), and Van Horn (out), Jamie Fieck (out), Eric Mrudock, Jim MacIlvain,Scott Burell, Lucious Harris, Elliot Perry, and Even Eschmeyer. Keep that in mind when making refferences to Marbury's 4th season, and Steve's.
So Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion and Bo Outlaw had nothing to do with Phoenix making the playoffs. How many games did those guys miss. Shawn Marion better than Mobley. Stoudemire cancels out Yao at least last year, and Bo Outlaw is better than our fours put together, and those guys didn't miss anytime. Then you add gettting Penny down the stretch, and Phoenix is clearly a better team. Phoenix had a better squad down the stretch than Houston, and they only won 1 more game. That is in no reason to claim Marbury made a DRAMATIC improvement over Steve. Plus, Houston's second best player, Yao, sputtered down the stretch while Marbury's team played better and received Penny Hardaway. Its a ridiculous statement to make, and again for their careers, Steve has had only one dissappointing seasons including injuries. How many has Marbury had? Maybe that's why you claim his improvement was so DRAMATIC, but I just don't buy it.
Phoenix had the better squad DOWN THE STRETCH. They won one extra game FOR THE SEASON. Don't mix those 2 up. Remember, we were UP 1.5 games on Phoenix, and ended up 1 game behind. So down the stretch, they were 2.5 or 3 games better than us. 3 games out of the last 15, not out of 82, KEEP THAT IN MIND. Bo Outlaw was not better than our PF's last season. In fact, he was HORRIBLE. Stoudamire AT BEST cancels out Yao. Phoenix are the better team when healthy. But they weren't. The whole league saw Marbury grow up, so I don't know WHY you're disagreeing with that.
Actually, in the first post, I agreed with your overall assessment, I just think you make it sound like Marbury is so far ahead in his progress, which is what I disagreed with. I made that clear, and that's what I'm arguing. I never wrote that Marbury didn't improve last year, just that he's not that far ahead of Steve and he's had a lot more time to improve. Again we are talking about the difference of 1 game maybe 2 if you think the Suns took off when they solidified their playoff spot. That's not enough evidence to claim Marbury is so far ahead of Steve, they are actually pretty close. You're right about Bo Outlaw.
What a difference a game makes; If the Rockets had won any one of many winnable games last year agaisnt inferior teams (Bulls, heat (at home!), clips, knicks (2x!), wiz, cavs, nugz, grizz, hawks hell even that one against phoenix early in the season where francis' shot rimmed out at the buzzer) the rockets would have been in the playoffs and people would be talking about how Marbury was a chump and New Jersey got a steal in the trade for Jason Kidd. Oh well.
True, I think JVG will make Francis make better choice and get better shot selection because he would just about be the most dangerous player in the league with a mid-range jumper.... All he has to do is run the offense a little more closer in...Look for the cutter...Have players coming off picks...Have Yoa and Eddy on the block and moving...Hence a successful motion offense, no matter who is in the game, lets keep it moving man.
Almost puts you to tears huh??? I know I've dreamed about every stupid team we lost to in the past couple of seasons
Not if we got knocked out of the 1st round quickly...which I believe would have happened. By the way, I'm not looking at Marbury getting his team into the play-offs as a quantifier of him improvement. That just happens to be a coincidence, if taken alone. I'm looking at his improvement of play on the court (you actually have to watch him play to see these subtle changes). The increase of wins in % is a result of his game change. Take all of those factors together, no matter who was on his team...It's big difference. Saying that Phonnix got just 2 wins more than the Rockets is missing the issue. Look at were Marbury was before his 7th season. I'm waiting for Francis to make this change. True, Marbury has more time in the league, and that I acknowledged above...but Francis is going to be a 30 year old before he turns the corner in his game.
Pgabriel I respect your passion, but I have to agree with Sane (like you care if I do or not) But this quote of yours is true However, you must realize that although martin was on the ROSTER he was INJURED al but FOUR games. the Eastern conference was relatively stronger that year then they were Kidds first year in NJ and williams is a glorified scrub. Also I find it interesting that we all bash the Suns on this board yet whe we want to Defend francis we state that the suns were a much better club. We need some consistency. Sane gives us stats...stats dont lie. No harm intended just giving my two cents to you -bhanchod
