just being chinese ethnicity, doesn't mean much... and i don't like you just kidding... personaly as a chinese nationalist, i would support anything the government does that benefits the civilization. and i know more freedom is one of the items on the benefit list. but it TAKES TIME. gees, wasn't it like 40 years ago that minorities in US had way less freedom? what we need to do is find a better model that grants satisfactory freedom to people yet maintain centralized control. and please don't say democracy will cure curruption in china, because it will not. the root of corruption is NOT government, the root is the culture itself. we need to find ways to improve the culture by learning from others and develop our own method. copy cat does NOT work. why copy from someone else when you can try to find a better system? cause we all know that the system in US isn't perfect. and yes, i believe freedom of speech is very important to have in china, and i personaly believe it will come soon enough. and stop being an ass to your country if you claim you are chinese.
The root of corruption is NOT culture, but human greedy. If you admit humans are bad by nature, you will realize that you need a system to keep you in check, where people can have their opinions count. If you believe nothing is wrong to have a group people claiming that they are always right, and they will represent you for everything, WITHOUT your oversight, I would assume that you might be inside the group or at least a beneficiary.
hm... i guess that's where we differ. i consider myself a confucian/daoist. one of the most basic chinese philosophical/religion difference from other is, we believe human nature is fundementally good, not bad. everyone was born good natured or neutral. it's pretty deeply rooted in most chinese, even the children's verse, the first 3 characters of verse says that. people only become bad/greed because of what they see. so for me, if we change people learn from, then things can be different. chinese don't believe in sins and stuff like that as west.
"one of the most basic Chinese philosophical/religion difference from other is, we believe human nature is fundamentally good, not bad. everyone was born good natured or neutral. it's pretty deeply rooted in most Chinese, even the children's verse, the first 3 characters of verse says that. people only become bad/greed because of what they see." If the majority of the Chinese people think as you do, and I'm certainly not saying whether they do or don't, it is no wonder that the oligarchy (or totalitarian dictatorship, if you prefer) can maintain its control on power. The government portrays itself as "fundamentally good, not bad" and "people only become bad/greed(y) because of what they see." So the government is the "good steward of China" protecting the Chinese people from "becoming bad and greedy" by controlling the media, controlling the political process, which includes controlling "elections," what the people can read or see in the various forms of media if the government thinks it might "be bad for the people," translating into being bad for the government's control of the power structure. I have to say that the government of China has a heck of a thing going. If there is a movement, however peaceful, that they see as a threat to their power, they portray it as "bad for the people and stability," which really means bad for the government in power and a threat to the stability of the government's hold on the people, which it has had for many decades. I wonder if some of you who are defenders of the "system," or status quo, ever wonder how much this "threat" of democracy is real, and how much this "threat," trumpeted by the government and the state controlled media, is simply a creation of the Party to insure it's hold on power. Some dictatorships use outside threats to maintain their hold on the people, with mixed results (see Argentina's military government and the Falklands War as an example). China uses internal threats the same way. The Cultural Revolution is frequently brought up as an example of what "would/or possibly could" happen if the political process were "opened up." Yet the Cultural Revolution was a creation of the same single group that still holds sway in China, morphed into it's current state to fit the economic and cultural changes currently allowed. In short, a terrible event brought about by the CCP is being used as an example of what could happen if you allow other political processes to flourish. There is a great deal of irony and hypocrisy on the part of the government in doing that, don't you think? D&D. Replicant Voter.
What do you think? I don't think a great deal of our own government, at the moment, but we had elections last November, and are on our way to peacefully put this Republican Party, with their long run in power, to the curb. After they have suffered some more humiliating defeats in our elections, perhaps they will become more moderate and more mainstream and, hopefully, less corrupt. You know... it's how we do things here. D&D. Replicant Voter.
The only problem with that interpretation is, that those "good people" in power believe all the people they rule are bad by nature. Therefore, those people need to be controlled, what they say or do, what websites they are visiting or posting . Once you become part of that group, you are instantly qualified as "good people", and you can dictate how other bad people live. Isn't that exciting? No wonder everyone wants to be part of the good people group. How do you achieve that? Praising the good people and stomp on the bad people, of course you will be in trouble if those bad people one day become good people. Aka "3 kinds of people" in Culture Revolution. It's funny to blame students in Culture Revolution. What did they know? The education they got was that Mao is always right, and he represents and leads the party, and the party represents and leads the people. Once the Great Mao disliked some of the criticism he was getting, he "decided" there must be some conspiracy against him, the party, and the country. So he just went out and rallied students up to change the status quo. It's ironical that during some of the violent fights between groups of students, in those blood bath where guns were used, their slogans were exactly the same "To protect Chairman Mao". Speaking of Daoism, it says "Controlling a large country just like cooking small fish", which means you don't change it drastically to make it a mess. Mao and his followers are certainly no daoists, coz they used a violent revolution to overthrow a legit government, and then used Culture Revolution to maintain firmer grip of power. What happened to Chinese people and China, did anyone care? BTW, those were the "good people" by constitution and your interpretation of culture.
Chinese tend to think in term of the current government compared to the Chinese governments though out thousands years of history. They ask the same question many Americans do "Are we better of now than a generation ago?" While the answer for many Americans are "NO”, the answer for vast majority of Chinese is definitely "Yes"! If you ask Chinese are they as well off as the Americans or the Europeans? They will answer "NO". It is all a perspective in relative terms. The current situation in China can be compared to any of the most prospered period in over 5000 years of Chinese history and especially to the previous 100-150 years. That is why currently the CCP is able to hold power. Remember China was as poor as many of the poorest African nations just 30 years ago! The accomplishment of the Deng led government cannot be understated by anyone. How would most Americans feel if Bush II tripled or even quadrupled the standard of living for most Americans? Would people care about his little war in Iraq? I highly doubt it.
I think you're being a little hard on the Chinese government. They just became a free country after kicking out the Japanese and European countries in the first half of the 20th century. And they had to basically rebuild the entire country and get it up to speed with the rest of the world in 50 years (without Western money). Does it give them a free pass on things like botching Tiannenmen? no, but if the people of China are willing to accept what we consider to be a repressive regime on them because the majority of them are still hanging out on the bottom of Maslow's pyramid, then I think you have to let them figure things out themselves. The greatest mistake the Western World has made in the past and even now are that we think we know what's best for everyone else because we asume everyone wants the same things we want. We're looking at the Chinese government according to our full belly standards.
good nature has nothing to do with politics, don't get it mixed together. we have our own moral standards that we follow based on chinese philosophy/religion. it's not controlled by the current government. government will change if it's necessary as demostrated in the last 5000 years. as for treat of democracy. i do not believe there is one. i simply do not wish to use the system from other countries when they are the only ones that claims it's the best system in the world. like i said before, a new and better system needs to be developed, but it would take a long process. and we have to prepare for future and be a step ahead, not trying to catch up. in the near future, democracy will be part of history and other methods of governing will emerge. i simply do not want to be following the steps of something that will become obsolete.
I agree. Sincerely, Me too. Regards, Hmm... sounds like this 'new kind of government' thing might be worth looking into,
Ok, you don't see how the government is using your "philosophy/religion" to help maintain its control. And you have bought into their propaganda, to use an appropriate word, that any "new and better system" is going to be a "long process." The government, and the Chinese people, are using the fact that you have a long and illustrious history (for the most part) to their advantage. The government's advantage, because it is another excuse for maintaining their power, and the Chinese people, because it allows them to justify living under a system that allows a small group to rule over more than one billion Chinese people. Say what you like about democracy, which has many forms and many faults, but it does allow for a peaceful change of the ruling government. I respect the people of China wanting to have a system that fits their needs. What I think is actually happening, and has happened for decades, is that the ruling group uses those beliefs, and much else, to maintain its grip on power. In my opinion, of course. George Bush used fear to win reelection, and his political party used fear to win Congressional elections prior to last November. Your own government is doing the same, in its own way. At least here, we can vote out the party in power and create not only a peaceful change in government, but changes in a host of policies, domestic and foreign. It can take awhile for the people of my own country, a majority, to realize the need for change, but eventually they always do. In China, the very fact that you have a history of thousands of years, (a history, for the most part, as I said a moment ago, that you have every reason to be proud of) allows the Chinese government to maintain its power by using that very fact as one of their reasons for keeping control. Again, in my opinion. D&D. Replicant Voter.
alright, i'm not going to argue anymore. i'm just going to state that, i left china when i was in middle school. and i was educated in the US. i have not been exposed to the propaganda you are talking about. all of my intention is, help china. and i know what you were trying to say completely. but i think our concept of time is quiet a bit different. yall have less than 300 years of history. we think about 5000 years like others have stated earlier. doesn't quiet match. and voting out bush is a short term fix, it does not change the course of the american goal which is to spread democracy around the world until... and whoever put those pictures up is a completely ignorant ass.
I think it'll a natural cycle for democracies to rise and fall because a complacent public has a habit of spending itself to oblivion and the instability that results makes them beg for strong leadership. Bush might have used fear, but the threat was real enough in the eyes of the public and Congress for them to pass sweeping changes in our civil liberties. As for when the decay begins, the government ignoring the rule of law is a starter. I'm not a fan of the CCP, but raising a billion people above the poverty line is an impressive feat.
Well, this ignorant ass knows that each of these gentlemen used exactly the same phrasing about democracy being a flash in the pan and different solutions for different cultures, yadda yadda (though I think the Japanese stuff does not come directly from Hirohito). If you would like me to pull up the quotes and compare them to yours I would be glad to. Personally, looking at 5,000 years of Imperial Dynasties, I would think you would have a better understanding of the flaws of autocracy and 'palace politics'. Apparently you have read a different history of China than I have.
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. --Sir Winston Churchill
I don't think you read my post closely enough, but I respect your thoughts on the subject, and the way you've been discussing this. As for the photos, while I like Ottomaton a great deal, I think they are in poor taste, if we're going to attempt to have meaningful discussions on these issues. (calling him an ass doesn't help, but I think I called a guy an idiot in the GARM the other day, so we'll survive. The guy was an idiot, by the way) Having said that, I do understand his point. (now back to my own) You keep bringing up 5000 years, as if that stretch of your history trumps any argument one might make regarding China. Yet my own ancestors go back that long, and longer. Nations come and go. You can say, "we've been here 5000 years," but China is eagerly borrowing huge chunks of our economic system wholesale, and chunks of our culture, as well, those allowed by your government. The point I was making earlier is that this constant harping on the length of your history is an enabler of the current Chinese government's policies. The length of your history and the size of your population doesn't trump all. This country had a revolution and is the world's first real democratic republic. Whoop-de-damn-do! I hope we're around 5,000 years, but to tell you the truth, I hope the damn planet is around another 5,000 years even more. Our 230 years of existence is remarkable, if you consider the odds against the United States surviving that long. Surviving that long, becoming the most powerful nation on the planet, for a time, at least, and doing so when the world was run by "noble" dynasties, including China's. It is truly remarkable. Who knows... we may even survive George W. Bush. The man can't run again for office. (not that he'd win if he did!) I've been gone for awhile, and have to go off for a bit in a few minutes, but I wanted to respond to this... Hell no!!! Not in the least. How? I don't like the current Chinese government. I don't like our former Congressional government here, and dislike very much the chump sitting in the Oval Office. (or wherever he happens to be today) I support democracy, as flawed as it is, because it allows the sorts of things I talked about... peaceful change in government by the people. (when they get around to waking up!) How is that "neo-connish?" I have no desire to force China to change it's government. That's the business of the Chinese people. However, this is D&D and we're discussing these issues, so I'm certainly going to give my opinion, given the time and the inclination. D&D. Replcant Voter.
Do you believe any government, Chinese or any other will just give up power for something different whether it's Democracy or something else? Those in power will never give it up willingly, and it doesn't matter what it's for. That is why freedom of speech, and other tools are necessary to make sure that pressure is put on the members of govt. who hold that power.
