The American government was founded by revolutionaries. I'm not sure I'd agree that we have leadership to spare, either, considering the "leadership" we currently have. I think it's a common mistake for totalitarian governments to overreact when there are political protests of one kind or another. Quite often, they produce a reaction different from what was intended by brutal suppression, and produce more trouble, not less. By suppressing the ability of the people to speak out against governmental policies, large numbers of otherwise peaceful people "go underground," and are more prone to violence, and working in secret against those in power. One example would be Mubarak's Egypt, where increasing numbers of people are going underground to work against the government (my opinion, from my take on reading a lot of sources), because they were prevented from working within a so-called democratic government, which is democratic in name only. There are several countries in that region, and elsewhere in the world, where what could be peaceful protest against government policies, and peaceful changes of government by elections, are put down by violence, intimidation, and the rigging of not only elections, but the abuse of institutions. Pakistan and Iran are two examples. I think China is another, although I admit that China has made strides in the right direction. They still have a very long way to go. D&D. Replicants for Change in the Texas Legislature!
Really? Reality tells us differently. The pro-democracy movement largely fell from the scene as the Chinese economic engine picked up steam in the 90's. In fact a lot of the democratic leaders of 1989 spent most of the 90's more concerned with $$$ than rights. Quite an opiate. LOL, come on, you can't be serious. I don't know about you but I trust the Chinese people to be able to govern themselves without widespread slaughter - in fact you'd be hard pressed to find a more ethnically homogenous place at its core on a percentage basis. It's very racist to assume that Chinese aren't ready for democracy.
everyone in china knows freedom will come in time, that's just how things works. but right now, i'm absolutely against that. stability is way more important than freedom at this point. besides, chinese culture and thinking is way different from americans that i don't think most of yall can comprehend. i'm totally for centralized government, country is greater than individual. i would sacrifice my rights for the benefit of the country. and i'm sure a lot chinese people think like that. but once again, i emphasis, more freedom will be available and will be granted by the current government. you guys are nuts if yall think the government is bad. too much propaganda here. all the government officials come from the people, yes most of them may be corrupt, but they do not want to make the country worse.
I think we can individually commemorate the other ones, and publicly honor the big one with the heavy impact of Tiananmen Square. Or have one all encompassing commemoration.
stop lying. learn from China's reneging on its signed promise to grand HK soveignty / freedom that' just you. there are many Chinese who think otherwise, ergo the TAM Square protest. the dizzying height of ignorance. The Chinese Gov granted HKSAR soveignty, only to interpret it away. what a trajesty
I am not sure what you're talking about. Oh, is this that whole "economic liberalization inevitably leads to political liberalization" argument?
I met Wang Dan before, the guy who was the head of the student protests. He said that China would become a democracy in at least 2 years...6 years ago. He was a little crazy and didn't seem right in the head. I also lived with a teacher (host mother during study abroad session) who lost several students that day. Not going to defend China, because they did screw up in handling the protests, but I'm not going to say the student protesters were angels either, they had their own problems as well and most had no idea what they were protesting for. The place was as bad as Woodstock 1999 and did need to be stopped, but the PRC did it in the worst way possible. On another note, it was 18 years ago and China is a very different animal today. Hell, the rodney king riots were earlier and just as bad in this country, but we stopped remembering that anniversary years ago.
The only way you can end corruption is through increasing accountability of the government to the people and the only way that can be done is through democracy.
Pro-democracy my ass. It was about economic freedom back then and it is much the same now. Racist? Is that a joke by the China antagonist, Japanese right-wing militarism sympathizer, Chinese minority separatism supporter, Anglo-Saxon colonialism apologist, fellow traveler Sammy Fisher? I mean, feel free to masturbate over that TAM tank photo in your bedroom/cubicle, but spare us the BS on how Chinese should go about their own business.
These questions are for wnes but I invite others to answer too. Do you think that the PRC could've had multiparty democracy in 1989 and what might've been the consequences of that if they did? Do you think the PRC can have it now?
I agree much. There would be a good debate on the extent of that suppression as the sustainer of fundamentalist terrorism. The "spare leadership" comment comes from my belief that our laws and government can recover (on a functional scale) if the top levels of leadership were victims of some natural catastrophe. Maybe that's a benefit to most democracies and not a result of American culture. I think Asian cultures are more willing to accept the concept of a benevolent dictatorship as long as the country is secure and stable. Japan had its occupation of American soldiers. S. Korea and Taiwan had some form of martial law imposed upon them for 30+ years, and they held democratic elections relatively recently. Using Taiwan as reference, the adjustment to free speech and liberalism is a tough one. Public disillusion grows when political scandals and corruption is aired their media. I think it's magnified because the culture tries to hide or avoid scandals rather than airing it out in the open. I would even say that the people would rather not know as long as things are good at home. In Taiwan's case, there's a lot to complain about. The underlying issue is always money. The wealthy Asian countries have tens of billions in foreign currency reserves floating around unused. China has an estimated 1 trillion in American bonds and savings. Corruption will always be a factor with that much money in public trust, but what happens when the free media airs the fact that all of its politicians are corrupt or too inept to be worried about corruption?
I think they could have had a different path than the one they took by brutally crushing dissent. Like other states run by a small group with near absolute power, with paranoia regarding dissent and a need to do anything, and say anything, to maintain their grip on power, the Chinese government has done an excellent job of pushing dissent underground and twisting the avowed purpose of governmental institutions to its own ends. Personally, I think this is dangerous. Mubarak in Egypt, who is president of a supposed democracy, one in name only, has crushed dissent, rigged elections, jailed those who disagree with his policies, and I think at some point the country will blow up in a full fledged revolution, with much death and suffering for the country. Had Mubarak allowed free elections and a truly free judicial system long ago, we might very well see a fully functioning Egyptian democracy, with a government more moderate than Mubarak's and what will probably follow his rule after things finally come to pieces there. Pakistan, a close friend and "ally" of China, as well as this country, is another example. The military holds power "for the good of the people," while violently crushing dissent, perverting the judicial system to its own ends, and pushing those who wanted to participate in free elections for a democratic Pakistan underground, radicalizing many of them in the process. The result in the end? Things will "blow up," in my opinion, and you will end up with a more radical government than would have been the case, had truly free elections been allowed long ago, with their results accepted by the generals. China plays with fire, just as Egypt and Pakistan do. With dissent pushed underground. A poster earlier mentioned Hong Kong as an example of China's government reneging on promises for free elections and a "one state, two systems" approach that is supposed to appeal to Taiwan. When Taiwan looks to what has played out in Hong Kong, I doubt that they are excited about sharing the same fate. For those who claim that relative economic prosperity trumps all, I would say that the human spirit cares about more than that. When you suppress, often brutally, the urge for freedom of expression, for free elections, for the ability to speak in dissent of the government without fear of reprisal, you just postpone the inevitable explosion. The people of China will have had enough of the oligarchy someday, as the people of Egypt and Pakistan will have as much as they can take of their own dictatorships, just as the people of Eastern Europe did some years ago. Someday, the people of China will simply be fed up with what is, for all practical purposes, a dictatorship, regardless of the fine phrases used in the government controlled media. In my opinion. I hope that when that time comes, or even better, before that time comes, there will be a peaceful change in the system of government, one that looks beyond economics and excuses to prevent democracy. I wish them luck. They need it. edit: I had problems with my broadband for a while, and thought I had lost the post at the top of this page, so if I repeated some of it, I apologize. D&D. Replicant Voter.
I don't know about Asian cultures being more accepting of "benevolent dictatorships" but I do now that many Chinese people I talked to when I visited in 1997 mentioned that China has numerous incidents of tumultuous violence and chaos being instituted by idealistic students in their history. It sounds like they fear a return of that kind of chaos more than the repression of the state. The Cultural Revolution was the most recent example of a revolution powered by zealous students and that just devastated the country for over ten years. I am sure this has been alluded to in this thread, but it is important to look at events in historical, as well as in a cultural context. I can't help but admire anybody who fights a repressive state, but it *is* more complicated than a guy vs. a bunch of tanks fighting for freedom, or however it was sold to us when it happened.
Short answers: 1) no; 2) wide-scale chaos and turmoil followed by years, if not decades, of economic and political setbacks, and enormous loss of human lives which would make TAM casualties look like a child play; 3) probably not. Peace, prosperity, and stability always trump pseudo democracy.
Why can't they have democracy now? They're an ethnically homogenous country with a booming economy. Seems like a pretty good forumla. I mean, in India, they've got massive sectarian divides among religious and class lines, lots of poverty, and plenty of other issues and its a functioning democracy. (granted there's corruption but China has a good deal of that too)
I have to admit I do not know much about China and I have no idea what the Chinese people there really want. I think it'd be laughable for me, as a foreigner, to impose my view of 'their best interest' on them. Western type of democracy, political stability, economic well-being...which is more important to them? I surely do not know. And I wonder anyone here who can say it with a straight face that they do know. Of course, one can argue that they should get everything immediately right now all at the same time, in a perfect world.
wnes, I would like to masturbate but I have no material. Why don't you tell us more paranoid fantasies about Chinese civil war about how your rowdy chinese cousins would collapse in a bloody mess of a BILLION BAGHDADS, lololol, if the authoritarian regime loosens its grip one iota. Have you ever even been to China? Yeah, I bet some serious MASS SHOVING might break out, with even some full blown JOSTLING. Sectarian ROUGHOUSING on the scale of a BILLION BAGHDADS is soon to follow - I mean no place is more of a powder keg than a nation dominated by like-minded conformists. You are so easy to play, you get so defensive in view of a perceived racial slight (when anybody dares attack the CCP) that you turn into the biggest racist of them all. very amusing!
