I can't even believe we are having this conversation. I really can't. Hakeem vs Kareem? That I can see. Hakeem vs Shaq? I can live with that. Hakeem vs...Duncan? Really? Really....Really? The ONLY people...that will say Duncan is better than Hakeem with a straight face, will be kids, who grew up in the 90's. That's it. Everybody else with an IQ above a shoe lace, that understands the game of basketball, knows Hakeem is far above Duncan, Duncan isn't even close. Duncan isn't even in the ballpark as Hakeem. But you don't have take my word for it. Find Duncans best game. Put it against Hakeems best game and you will see it's not even close. And Hakeem was great long before the 94 season. Yes, in 92-95 He played like a god. Probably the best 3 years anybody has ever played the game. But let's not pretend that he didn't lead a Rockets team over the Showtime Lakers in 86, pushed Celtics to 6 games. A Celtics team BTW, that would have CRUSHED Duncan and the Spurs. Want some more facts? 95. Drob and Shaq. Arguably the best Center in all time in Shaq, and a top 10 center of all time in Drob. The Rockets lost 2 games in those two series. Making each man look silly en route to a 2nd championship. Winning Record against Jordan, all time Blocks leader, Quadruple Double, 200 blocks 200 Steals, could defend the pick and roll better than any Center. If I had the #1 pick to draft whoever I wanted, to start my team. I'd pick Hakeem or Jordan, flip a coin. Those two are in a world all of their own. Everybody says "Jordan stopped SO many HOF from getting rings" Guess what? When Jordan left in 94, it was open season. And what did Hakeem do? He demoralized the Suns, not once, but twice in back to back years. Made Drob look like a Dleague player. Disposed of the Jazz, and didn't even let Shaq win a single game in his first finals. When debating __ vs __ always ask this. If you replace Hakeem with Duncan in 86, do they beat the Lakers? No. If you replace Duncan with Hakeem, do they win it all in 03, 05? Yes. Started the season 15-0 then 21-1. Which til this day has yet to be broken btw. Duncan is a fantastic player, but I don't have him rated even the best PF of all time.
^^^^^^^ The importance of watching the games and not just looking at the numbers. Clearly you were not around to watch Hakeem play. Shaq actually fared very well against Hakeem. Robinson and Ewing were simply outclassed by Hakeem. since you like to look at the numbers, here's something to ponder: Hakeem and Jordan's stats improved in the playoffs, while other player's came down. PS. I looked at some of your posts, and I am afraid I have fed a troll. Durant as the 3rd best player in the NBA History when it is all over?!!? *smh*
Not to mention, look at the list of players, that just off hand tired 4am, that asked for Hakeems services. Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, Dwight. From Jordan saying Hakeem was the best center he ever saw, to running down the court and blocking a point guard. Not to mention Les had a damn brain fart in 96 and decided to trade for Barkley, giving up Cassell and Horry. AND on top of that, changed the Uniforms. Show me another team that after winning back to back titles, heck...2 out 3 years, you trade two of your key pieces, AND change your uniform. I won't even touch the whole Pippen crap
Actually, Hakeem also abused Shaq for quite a while until the latter improved further while the former became too old.:grin:
Referring to Tim Duncan as a PF is one of my all-time 'legacy question' pet peeves. Just because he played next to an incumbent C in David Robinson for the first few years of his career, does not mean that is his 'position'. Otherwise position just becomes a height-relative issue, which I tend not to agree with, at least not in isolation of how the game is played. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but seems to me if you're over 6'10", do most of your damage from the post, elbow or short corner with the offense running through you, are physically imposing enough to guard the other team's C, and most importantly, if you serve as the anchor of your team's help defence (and here's where the offense-minded/rebounding 4s like CB4 and Malone are disqualified), then you are a CENTER, regardless of whatever kind of Rasho Nestero-stiff is lining up next to you as your alleged center In legacy terms it's convenient for Duncan's proponents to consider him a PF because he can fit in at the top of the all-time list compared to Karla and CB4. At the C position, he's a peg lower than the all-time greats like Hakeem (who by the way played next to a 7'4'' dude for wee while and never got the same benefit of the PF tag)...but there's no shame in that...he's a sure-fire hall of famer and one of the most consistent performers ever to play. But he's not a PF!
Why can't he just be a "PF/C"? Seems like the reasonable thing to do since he was versatile enough to play both positions to perfection. It's like arguing if Glide was a SF or a SG. Depends on the stage of his career, opponents and teammates.
don - you're absolutely right, the positional distinctions can seem a bit petty and don't necessarily capture the roles and responsibilities in relation to teammates, schemes, etc. Such distinctions should be allowed to be viewed in a much more nebulous and free-flowing fashion than I described above - that's the beauty of the game - that all players in theory have different roles but ultimately abide by the same set of rules/capabilities of what they can potentially do on the court. I guess what 'bugs' me is hearing the common declaration of 'Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time'...because to me it's not an accurate assessment in comparison to what players in similar roles accomplished on the court...but I take more enjoyment in the discussion than I am bothered by the obtuse assertions!!
Well this list of PF's is pretty poor when you consider the Centers Hakeem played against: Robinson Shaq Ewing Dikembe Alonzo Mourning Hall of Famers in BOLD
Hakeem. Hakeem had to face a lot tougher opponents than Duncan has. He was a better scorer and defender. Prime hakeem won league mvp, defensive player of the year and finals mvp in the same year. But Duncan for sure has had a more successful career. When putting them on the top all time list, I think you can't go wrong with them neck neck with each other. I think in the end, when Ducan's career is over, he'll jump over Hakeem. People tend to favor the older generation a lot. But yea, PRIME vs PRIME, Hakeem would take Duncan.
Hakeem. "He's like a wolf chasing a reindeer. He just chases and chases and chases. Finally, it's the reindeer who wears out, stops and says, 'Kill me. It will be less painful.'" Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell on Hakeem
Don't forget Daughtery, Moses, Kareem, Parish or, the guy Dream said was the toughest to score no, Mark Eaton.
Duncan is a great guy but the whole "Best PF to ever play" is bull****. First of all, he plays PF because he can shoot the J a little bit from the outside, he is a center. Hakeem played more like a "PF" than Duncan. Other than that I think it is even. You can knock on Duncan for what he has done for the spurs this last decade...it is quite amazing they have always been close to the top and won multiple rings.
hakeem by a country mile. tim duncan's overall greatness is based on him being drafted by the san antonio spurs. Duncan = luckiest all time great player in nba history. For his entire NBA career, Duncan has had the luxury of having a first class coach, first class gm, first class organization, and two all star caliber players to play with him not to mention a hall of famer in robinson when he first came in. Duncan would not be Duncan if he was drafted by the celtics or the milwuakee bucks. yes he's great in his own right but he was nowhere near the dominant unstoppable one one big man that hakeem was. How many players in the history of the nba can say they had a first class coach, gm, organization, and two all star teammates basically his entire career? Hakeem basically won a title by himself then another one with a past prime drexler all the while being slightly pass prime himself. Hakeem > Duncan
Hakeem. Duh! How is this even a question? If you placed Tim Duncan in the pantheon of Rockets bigs, he'd barely make the top five if you compare them all at the tops of their games. Hakeem Moses Sampson Barkley *Duncan* And if you bias for longevity, the only spot he picks up is Ralph's.
