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[RAPM] How do the Rockets compare with other contenders?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by CXbby, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Fit, chemistry, strategy are all important elements in building a contender, as we continue to see McHale and Co. tinker with those throughout preseason and into the regular season. However, far and away the biggest contributor to winning in the NBA is talent. So while we wonder how Asik will fit next to Howard, who will start at PG, and will we even play a PF, the number #1 question to ask is still: do we have enough talent?

    RAPM is the closest thing we have today in measuring exactly how 'good' players are. It has it's flaws and quirks, but is much more useful than other so called 'advanced stats', many of which are in my opinion broken. Mr. Doolittle needs to quit trying to make WARP happen: it won't.

    So how do the Rockets compare with other contenders? How have we structured our team? Do we have enough talent? I think it is a fun exercise to take a look at the RAPM of the rotations of all of the contenders.

    http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

    Rockets:

    Stars

    Howard +5.5
    Harden +5.1

    Roleplayers

    Asik +4.5 (impact limited due to minutes)
    Lin +0.4
    Beverley +0.4
    Parsons -0.1
    Brewer -1.2
    Casspi -1.3
    Garcia -1.7

    Jones -2.6
    Montiejunas -3.7

    ------------------

    Heat:

    Stars

    Lebron +10.1
    Wade +4.5

    Roleplayers

    Bosh +1.9
    Andersen +5.2 (impact limited due to minutes)
    Chalmers +0.5
    Battier -0.3
    Ray Allen -1.6
    Haslem -2.0
    Cole -6.1

    ------------------

    Bulls:

    Stars

    Rose +4.3
    Noah +4.6

    Roleplayers

    Gibson +2.5
    Deng +1.4
    Butler +1.0
    Dunleavy +0.2
    Hinrich -0.2
    Mohammed -1.0
    Boozer -1.1

    ------------------

    Spurs:

    Stars

    Duncan +7.3
    Parker +3.3

    Roleplayers

    Ginobili +3.7 (impact limited due to minutes)
    Splitter +3.7 (impact limited due to minutes)
    Leonard +1.5
    Green +0.4
    Bonner -0.6
    Diaw -0.9

    ------------------

    Thunder:

    Stars

    Durant +8.0
    Westbrook +5.3

    Roleplayers

    Ibaka +2.7
    Collison +1.5
    Sefolosha +0.6
    Perkins -1.4
    Jackson -2.7

    ------------------

    Clippers:

    Stars

    Paul +8.2
    Griffin +4.5

    Roleplayers

    Jordan +3.0
    Barnes +0.9
    Dudley +0.7
    Crawford -0.9
    Redick -1.3
    Collison -1.3
    Hollins -2.1

    ------------------

    Grizzlies:

    Stars

    Gasol +6.0
    Conley +5.1

    Roleplayers

    Randolph +1.4
    Koufos +1.8
    Allen +1.0
    Davis -0.3
    Prince -0.8
    Miller -1.1
    Pondexter -2.1
    Bayless -2.2
    ______________


    A few observations:

    1. The 'Big 3' is a myth in the NBA. It does not exist on any roster. To qualify as a 'star', in my view, you have to produce around a +4.0 level and capable of playing 35 MPG or more. Every contender is structured similarly, built around two star players, and the Rockets are no different. The need for a 3rd star on the Rockets is questionable, it would be a luxury for sure, but a necessity? That depends on exactly how good Harden/Howard are.

    2. Are the Rockets roleplayers good enough? At first glace, outside of Asik, the depth of the talent on this team seems to be lacking compared to other contenders. However, as a relatively young team, a few have room to improve. It will be imperative for Lin/Parsons/Beverley to make leaps and bounds this year, and that is the trio I see most capable of taking that step. Even Casspi/Garcia/Brewer can improve on last years numbers, either from a change in role or recovery from injury. As we currently stand, our roleplayers do not stack up with other contenders, but almost every single one of them have the ability to change that.

    3. Are the Rockets stars good enough? This is the question that matters the most, because the team will only go as far as its top shelf talent will take it.

    Going by last years numbers, Harden/Howard are good enough to compete, but not good enough to do it alone. If nothing changes, the team will need to either upgrade its roleplayers with multiple impact players like the Spurs, or acquire a legitimate 3rd star.

    However, last year's numbers need to be put into perspective. James Harden was 23 years old. He is playing at a superstar level, but still young enough to take it to another level. Dwight Howard historically has been a +9 to +10 player the last few years, equal with Lebron James as the best player in the NBA! Even if he never reaches that level again, on a team that fits his strengths more than the Lakers, can he get back to +7 or +8?

    If either of those two cases comes true, the Rockets stars will be good enough to see eye to eye with the best combos in the entire league, including Lebron/Wade.

    4. Had to stick this in here:

    Dmo/Jones. Almost no contending team in the league have players this bad in their rotations. And certainly no one starts them. Unless you have the best player in the world in Lebron James, then you can carry a guy like Norris Cole. Otherwise, players this caliber simply do not play.
     
  2. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    I had to google it: "Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus"
     
  3. xAliceInChains

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    Damn good post man. Lots of quality information in there.

    I started typing out a long post about how I think this team competes even better than many think they will, then I started looking up stats and was like hey I really need to get ready for work. So without needless ranting, I think this team is much better than most will give credit.

    Time tells all.
     
  4. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    This data makes a very strong case for keeping Asik. I would play Twin Towers and not play Jones and Motiejunas all that much. The PF/C minutes should be: Howard 35, Asik 35 and the other guys can somehow share the remaining 26 minutes.
     
  5. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Wins projections for contenders based on RAPM from link:

    Heat 57
    Thunder 57
    Rockets 56
    Nets 55
    Bulls 53
    Clippers 53
    Grizzlies 51
    Spurs 50

    Bulls and Spurs seem low, I think that is where the +5 wins from coaching comes to play, something RAPM does not factor.

    I listed the players individually just to see how these teams were constructed, their quality of roleplayers etc. For overall strength and win projections you have to adjusted for minutes and player growth/decline. Something your link attempts to do.
     
  6. trugoy

    trugoy Member

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    Asik will not be traded, not because he's not valued by basketball people, there are basketball people that value him a lot. However, he is criminally underrated by fans, there's a lot of Rockets fans who are willing to trade him for Ryan Anderson, who is not in the same postcode as Asik in terms of value.

    Asik is a borderline star and most teams will not be trade for him because the value required to pry him from the rockets(i.e. an all-star caliber player) will result in the type of PR hit that most teams will not want to endure. Fans will react very negatively to trading an All-Star for a "backup center", and if a GM does this trade, it has the potential to be a move that gets a GM fired.

    The Rockets are going to have to figure out how to make Asik-Howard work on the court.
     
  7. Rox23

    Rox23 Member

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    Good point about Asik.

    If there were any time to trade Asik it would have been this summer...with Asik having come off a stellar season as the "starting center". Morey however said this summer that he was "not even listening" to offers. Now Asik will be a "backup center" with less minutes and limited usage because of Dwight's impact: all his numbers will go down. Six months or a year from now Asik will be less appealing therefore and less high profile than he was this summer. All the evidence suggests that Asik stays until the end of his contract. Also Dwight and Harden want him to stay.
     
  8. Billionzz

    Billionzz Contributing Member

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    DMo is worse than Jones, come on you can be more objective than that.
     
  9. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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  10. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    what are the RAPM's for our coveted PF's
     
  11. kuku

    kuku Contributing Member

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    You do not factor in the whatever + wins when the most of the players played for the same coach last season.

    Players with 'All Star' title doesn't equate to the skill level. David Lee in an all star but Warriors fans will jump at the opportunity of trade him for Asik if Bogut goes down. If There are other under the radar PF's who we can trade for the value of what Asik brings IF he only plays 15-20 minutes. Millsap, T Young, Smoove, Amir Johnson, Illyasova, just to name a few, and trading for Asik will NOT get their GM fired
     
  12. kuku

    kuku Contributing Member

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    Author's Update: This post (link) from Brett Koremenos over at Grantland makes the point that the Rockets could potentially play Asik alongside Howard for extended minutes. I only projected Asik to play 15 minutes a night as a result of Dwight’s arrival, but if you bump Asik’s projected minutes up to 25 minutes a game, the Rockets become a 59 win team with last year’s version of Dwight and a 65 (!) win team with the Orlando version of Dwight. I doubt they reach quite that high, if only because Dwight and Asik together on offense would put them in less than optimal roles (spacing issues being the primary problem) which would have a negative effect on their respective offensive xRAPMs. On the other hand, the two of them on defense together would be seemingly almost impossible to score on in the paint.
     
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  13. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Nice OP. Thanks for the work. All I have to say is: we should keep Asik!
     
  14. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

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    The author of nbacouchside.com actually made several more updates after that post, to try to account for schedules, advance or decline of players with age, regression to the mean, home court advantage, coaching, etc. The Rockets are generally in the 55+ win range under most of his methods.

    Anyhow, there are a lot of ways to predict this thing but right now much of it is just "on paper." I think the 55-ish range is probably reasonable for now but there is likely more upside than downside to this prediction.

    The one realistic "downside" case is a major injury to one or more players. Almost every rotation player for this team missed few games last year. This is unusually lucky for an NBA team but perhaps it is not so shocking given that the team had mostly very young guys.

    On the other hand, many of the Rockets players may well outperform their projected RAPM. Dwight Howard may be a year healthier. Harden worked on his defense. Lin and Beverley may have made a jump. Casspi could shock us. If just one or two of those things come to pass, one would up the teams's projected wins by a couple games at least.
     
  15. trugoy

    trugoy Member

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    Houston is not taking any of those deals. That's why Asik will not be traded.

    Teams are only willing to trade the millsaps and illysova's for Asik. But his value is up there with the Bosh's and Aldridge's. Therefore no team will offer equivalent value for Asik.

    Hence, he will not be traded.
     
  16. langal

    langal Contributing Member

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    I think we are good enough to think beyond win-loss, etc. We should start thinking about how we would match up specifically with the other contenders. I really like the idea of keeping Asik around for the Grizzlies and Thunder.
     
  17. kuku

    kuku Contributing Member

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    The value of Asik only matters to Rockets. IF he plays less than 20 minutes, as I stated earlier, his value is less than a 36 minute Millsap or Amir and in no way up there in value with a 30-minute Bosh or 32-minute Aldridge.

    The experiment of twin tower is pivotal to the success of Rockets this season.
     
  18. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    A few more notes:

    1. Harden was a +5.1 last year which accounts for -0.9 on the defensive end. -0.9 is not earth shattering or irreparable, nothing like the, say, -5.6 of a Ben Gordon. However, it is worthy to note that Harden is the only player in the top 19 in the league with a negative defensive rating. In fact, along with Stephen Curry, they are the only two players in the top 30 with negative ratings.

    If Harden simply improved his defense to league average, he would become a top 5 player instantly. I don't think that is something that's out of the question, or even unlikely. The area young players(especially guards) improve the most the first few years in the league is defense.

    2. Jeremy Lin and Patrick Beverley are dead even both at +0.4 according to RAPM. So no insights there for McHale.

    As a rookie, +0.4 is extremely promising for Beverley. Young players new to the league generally start off as negatives(as you would expect). Parsons was only a -0.7 during his strong rookie year. And only breakeven last year. Jimmy Butler, who Bulls fans are head over heals for, is +1.0 in his second year. Any way you look at it, a positive rating for Beverley as a rookie is very strong, and portends well for his growth.

    +0.4 is also decent for Lin in basically his 2nd season. However, in a more ball dominate and high usage role on the Knicks, his RAPM in essentially his rookie year was +2.2. That is out of the ball park, and exactly the reason why Morey signed him to that contract. If you are a +2.2 player as a rookie, you are pretty much on your way to becoming an allstar if you continue down that path. A reduced role along with recovering from injury caused last year's decline.

    The Rockets plan this year may be to bring him off the bench in a more high usage role to revitalize the NY Lin. If he comes back to a +3.0ish level in that role, it might just be one of the key catalysts for our chances of contention this year. This isn't "projection" or anything based on "potential". It is based on what he already did in that role. As Morey would say, when you bet on something that's already happened before, the odds for you being right are increased.

    I would rank the key question marks this season as:

    a) How good is Howard? LA Howard, Orlando Howard, or somewhere in between?

    b) Can Asik play 25 MPG or more on this team?

    c) Can we bring back Linsanity in a high usage 6th man role?

    Those 3 questions will have the biggest impact on our team this year, IMO.
     
  19. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Stats are a tool and should never be used by themselves to try and determine which player is better or which team has the most talent. The only stat stat that trumps all is wins and losses.

    ESPN proves on a daily basis how stats can be used to prove anything you want regardless of how ludicrous it is. Stats are a tool and should always be used in conjunction with the eyeball test when possible.
     
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