Thanks, at least you stopped making that ridiculous claim. Those people are ignorant. That doesn't mean that one should not criticize Islam. We are at war with the violent faction of Islam, also known as militant political Islam. And we have strong ideological disagreements with mainstream Islam when it comes to treatment of women and gays, when it comes to freedom of religion, freedom of opinion and when it comes to tolerance (or lack thereof) in general. If he wants to avoid that war, suppressing the obvious truth is exactly the wrong way to go about things, because it riles people up and they are not dumb enough to not realize they are being lied to. Arguably, ISIS represents exactly what the founder of the religion represented. The fact that most Muslims are not like that is because they went AWAY from what the founder of the religion represented. Yes, and demonizing all Muslims would be wrong and would play into their hands. I believe we agree on that, 100 %. However, I am saying it ALSO plays into their hands to falsely pretend like they have nothing to do with Islam. It riles people up and leads to over-reactions against innocent Muslims. The right way to address the problem would be to intellectually work out where ISIS and "mainstream Islam"/the Islam as it was intended by its founder are connected, and whether that can be reconciled with modern Western values, and if not, how this clash of values is best addressed, while avoiding civil unrest. Stating the truth does not play into anyone's hands. It's what is necessary to address a problem. I don't see Muslims as such as the enemy. Islam as an ideology? Yes, it is a problem, and requires thorough examination and ideological scrutiny.
All I am saying that it's very important to separate out extremist Islam from mainstream Islam. I really don't care about what the founder of Islam was or was about - how much is fact, fiction or whatnot is for historians and religious scholars to figure out. But the fact that is important is that 100's of millions of Muslims believe their religion means peace. And than you have groups like ISIS who believe in a different version. Which version is correct or not may not be material rather than embracing and empowering the version that is compatible with the modern world. Islam can become whatever their believer make it as that's the nature of a religion - it's an institution as much as it is a historical book. Like I said, it's one thing to be critical of those parts of the world that encourages backwards treatment of people and criticize the Imams who support those backwards practices. But you aren't going to get very far attacking people's religions. Criticize the practices, criticize the people doing those practices. When you go after the religion itself, what happens is you will more than like entrench people into hardened positions and less change will be possible. That's my opinion.
Sweet Lou, there is not much I disagree with in your last post. It's a fair position to take (and quite different from much less nuanced posts you have made in the past).
So I see two issues. 1. Identify what is the underlying problem(s) behind all these terrorist attacks 2. Decide on how to solve that problem. On the first part, suppose we identify the primary problem as Islam at its core rather than an ideology of militant revolution and anti-Western sentiment that selectively uses Islamic scripture as a pretext for violence. How does that distinction impact how we go about finding a pragmatic solutions for all these attacks? Honest question -- I'm not denying that it might. Frankly, every time I see people make sarcastic "Religion of Peace" posts, I wonder what the motivation really is behind it. Not that I don't instinctively have similar thoughts, when I see things like this in the news time and time again. But are we perhaps just looking for a reason to blame all Muslims for these attacks? Do we gravitate towards this because it makes us feel better to be able to say, "This is what YOUR beliefs lead to. Shame on you."? Where does this train of thought really lead us?
To clarify, terrorists do need educated individuals and target engineers much like an army needs educated individuals. However, Muslims as a group are still poor and uneducated by developed country standards.
So then why do you make these threads? You don't seem to offer any solutions and stick to the mantra " of any idiot can tell you there is an issue, but what's the solution"?
The truth? That's a subjective matter in cases like this, especially for a religion that spans many centuries. The Ottoman Empire (the most recent Islamic empire) is pretty interesting because it shows how varied the beliefs are.
Why do news agencies report massacres like this? Are you saying they should not report them because they are not "offering a solution"?
Their job is to provide the news.... Is that your job or do you have some alternative motive? Can you answer what your solution or you going to deflect? Are you any idiot or something else? Now is your chance to show me.
So you decided to DEFLECT and the play the "any idiot" role. Interesting choice but not surprising.... It's easier to be an idiot than offer solutions. BBS is a discussion forum.... And you just admitted you can't discuss YOUR topic..... Seems like a theme with you..... A weak person theme to clarify.
I give you credit in that you forced me to articulate myself a lot better. I'm glad we can have a discussion without any negative energy erupting from either one of us.
Interesting insight. Maybe it's a rebuttal to a previous one. I still remember Dream saying that when MAR refused to stand up for the anthem because he said the nation represented all the bad things...
There are a number of important beliefs held by mainstream Islam this is absolutely not comparable with the modern world. Either Muslims become secular or there will continue to be major issues. You can call yourself or your faith anything you want, but it doesn't make it true. Donald Trump says he isn't a racist, the Catholic Church for years claimed it didn't have a sexual abuse problem.... Just because you want it to be so doesn't make it so. Also peace on your own terms isn't really peace. When a religion labels itself something I am dubious of it. There are certainly peaceful Muslims, as there are Christians and Pagans... but that doesn't make the faith especially peaceful compared to other faiths or the faithless.
Mohammed was an evil murderer and pedophile and ISIS espouses inerrantly the views of Mohammed. Islam IS the problem. There are people who call themselves "Muslim" and are fine people, but to be so requires rejecting what is, in fact, Islam. The Quran is a guide to genocide against civilization.
But then we should not ban them, should we. As to the rest of what you said, I agree with your criticism of Islam as an ideology.
