Yet another thread about rebuilding vs. retooling

Throwing around hypotheticals and theoretical is irrelevant. We have no idea the caliber of the players in the drafts because we aren't scouts. We don't know what we have been offered or what offers we put out there. All we know is that we have been active.

 

@LongTimeFan

You are being just a little impatient. I agree with your point that we haven't gotten anything done yet , and we still have some ways to go. Thing is, teams don't like to lose if they don't have to. If we had been a 28 win team, we most likely would have gotten the 8th pick, but I prefer us staying competitive.

I think you two are both arguing on different levels. LTF, you are saying that you want us to make a big move - and I do as well. Thing is, it's been only about 1.5 years, or even better, if you exclude the Artest year like you want, 1 year. It's been 1.5 to 1 year and we've gotten some potential talent. We'll see how they turn out, but again, its been only a little bit of time before we lost our superstars. Rebuilding doesn't happen instantly.

Bima, you're also right, but you're arguing that Morey has done a great job. I agree. He's let us stay competitive while also getting guys that Morey claims to have been targeting all along. Longtime is right, we don't know what they will become. We can't just look at draft numbers, but then that's a moot point. If they turn out to be amazing, then we have our star. If not, then we're still in the same position - looking for a star.

The thing is, you're both saying the same thing, just with a different tone. Bima is saying Morey's done great, is doing great, and we need to wait. He's not saying we're done yet, just we need to wait for the deal to come. You need two to tango, right? We want to make the move. We just need someone to make a move with.
Long time, you're saying that we need a big move. No one is saying we don't, we're just saying it's going to take time.

 

As I said in another thread, pierce,dirk,tracy,and amare were all drafted 8 or later. Roy was 6th, but have bad knees. You don't have to be top 5 to be a franchise player, but it seems like you have to be top 10 or find a guy with top 10 talent sitting on a teams bench like O'neal and Mcgrady in their prime and healthy. Thats why I think randolph( game changing talent) and thabeet (game changing defensive talent) are worth trading for. If those guy get to 80% of their talent, you're talking about a defensive player of the year in thabeet and a josh smith clone in randolph.

 

See, it just me :grin: . Seriously and people think I just like to bash shane, but he shouldn't have been getting 30+ minutes a game last year. Its almost similar to jvg playing howard and the rocket winning a meaningless game in 06. Not to mention, it didn't have to be cousins, I think monroe is going to be a helluva player personally. Since he's played next to big ben, he's played better.

 

LTF, maybe you misunderstood. I said that Morey started to rebuild halfway through that season. If you recall, the thought at the time of the Artest trade was that the Rockets would (finally) have McGrady and Yao healthy for that season, and Artest was viewed as "that third guy" to make them true title contenders. Hell, half of the ESPN analysts were picking the Rockets to get to the WCF or even win the West. I think Hollinger picked the Rockets to even win 60 games.

But then McGrady came up lame, came back, went into "Operation Shutdown" and then surprised Morey and Adelman by unilaterally electing to have microfracture surgery before he could be traded. THAT was when Morey saw that THAT particular team wasn't going to win a title and started to rebuild by trading for Lowry.

Also, it's not like the two first rounders traded for Artest--Donte Greene and the 23rd pick of the 2009 NBA Draft--would have made much difference in the rebuilding effort. I don't think either player would be much more than what Chase Budinger is. The Rockets have a quantity of that caliber of player to spare.

Uh . . . did you read any reports before the 2010 NBA Draft? The Warriors (#6) and the Pistons (#7) were DESPERATELY trying to move into the top 5 picks to get Cousins or Favors. They simply could not. None of the teams with a top-5 pick wanted to trade it, seeing as how almost every GM viewed that draft as only 5 players deep of potential All-Star caliber talent. The Rockets could have lost more games and had a higher pick, but it wouldn't have made a difference. Instead, they finished above-.500 and STILL got the #6 player on their board (albeit the "best of the rest" in their eyes).

I have not been shy in saying that I didn't think much of Jordan Hill, even when Morey traded for him. I thought he was taken too high at #8 overall. But as a throw-in from the McGrady trade (Martin was the prize, with the picks being the second-best component at the time), Hill is at least a decent backup PF/C prospect who I would have gladly taken in the late lottery or middle of the first round. As for Williams, the guy hasn't even had a chance to PRACTICE with the team. How is it fair to criticize the Rockets or Williams for him not yet playing? Give the kid (and Adelman) some time to see how he does in practice before throwing him into a rotation that is 4-0 since he was acquired. My point was that the Rockets could have been a mid-lottery team in 2008-09, and they quite probably would have selected Terrence Williams with a pick in the #8-11 range. And with a mid-first rounder (the best type of pick they could have expected to get in exchange for allowing another team to rent Ron Artest for a couple of months), the Rockets couldn't have hoped for a better player than Jordan Hill (who wouldn't even have been available at that point, but you get my point).

Yes, I will admit that I am a Morey backer. But that has nothing to do with any personal agenda and everything to do with Morey's track record OF THINGS HE CAN CONTROL being practically impeccable. He's done just about EVERYTHING in his power to put this team in position to be able to make a big move for a star. But like others have said, it takes two to tango. Morey will continue to collect assets, Adelman will continue to improve those assets through winning basketball games, and we'll just have to hope that another team is willing to deal with the Rockets in the near future.

Once again, my "let's play this thing out" hypothetical was simply to show people that the Rockets are in no better position now from a rebuilding standpoint than had they blown up the team at the start of the 2009 calendar year. Sure, there is no true superstar on the roster, but they wouldn't have had one anyway if they blew it all up in 2009.

That's all I'm saying. Otherwise, we're in agreement that this team lacks a true superstar, and Morey is doing all he can to try to get one.

 

So I don't know what you're arguing about LongTime, we both want the same thing. A star through the draft, if not trade. You even expect Morey to make a trade and I do too. I'm just saying it'll take time, and you said you're not impatient... then I don't know what you're making long posts about. We want the same thing.

Wait now that I really read your post I know what we are arguing about. You're saying our assets hasn't gotten us anything and probably won't with CP3 and Dwight coming into the market, but like I said, I'm confident he will very very soon.

The thing is I don't think you should call Morey content with mediocrity or that he has done nothing... truth is he has done a lot with so little and is continually collecting better and better players each year. If we still collect these kinds of players (Brooks, Scola) in the next 1-2 years and no true star is found, THEN I will agree with you. But like Bima and I were saying, it's only been a year and nothing he has done so far warrants judgment like yours.

 

I agree with most of what you've said -- but there are quite a few people on this board who think this team doesn't need a major shakeup of the main three guys to contend. Bima isn't one of them to my knowledge though.

I don't know, I don't really look at the Lowry trade as a sign that we were rebuilding. To me, it was just a sign that Brooks was ready to take over the team. I saw it as the Rockets being high on Lowry, but mostly thinking that they needed to create minutes for Brooks. I guess I can see how some people would think that, that was a rebuilding move since we got younger from it.

The two first rounders weren't world beaters (Greene+Casspi), but they're valuable assets to have if you're trying to pull off a major trade. Either way, it doesn't matter since we both agree we were not rebuilding at the time of the Artest deal.

But who did the Pistons or Warriors have to offer in combination with their pick to move up? Both teams are stuck with players on unattractive, bloated contracts. Do you think Sacramento would have resisted trading the pick if they could have gotten Brooks + #7? I'm not sure -- but it's hard to say without knowing exactly who the Rockets were offering to the Kings. We know they like Brooks.. I'm not sure who else they would have wanted. In my mind, the reason we couldn't get it done is because the Kings didn't want to fall from #5 to #14. The W's and Pistons wanted Cousins as well, but did they have any attractive assets to pair with their pick to move up? Randolph maybe?

Agreed about the wait and see approach on Williams. Though I'm not sure how we could have been a mid-lottery pick in the 08/09 season. Yao was basically a 20/10 guy that year, missing very little time. We had a strong supporting cast around him, with or without Artest. We ended up 53-29.. I don't think we would have fallen into the mid-lottery if we traded Artest. But again, I wasn't criticizing Morey for not rebuilding as soon as McGrady bowed out.

In my mind, the rebuilding came once the organization started to realize that Yao was going to miss the entire next season. Then it went from "let's re-sign Artest" to "ehhh, let him walk and we'll get someone younger that can grow with our team." There's no bright-line on when the process actually started, so either of us could be correct.

The main point I've been making in all these rebuilding threads is that the Rockets NEED to acquire a top three - top five talent. This doesn't have to be done through tanking -- we can trade our current assets for it. But those picks are generally the guys who develop into stars.. but most importantly, they would be our best trade assets should CP3 or Dwight ever go on the market. Do you more or less agree with this approach, or do you think we can build a contender and/or trade for a superstar using our current roster and the generally mid-first rounders we'll receive on a yearly basis from it?

I don't think I've said that Morey is content with mediocrity -- if I did i misspoke. What GM in their right mind would be content with mediocrity?

That said, I was never judging Morey -- I was responding to you and Bima judging him by saying it was impressive what he's done via rebuilding. I was just pointing out that the rebuilding process isn't close to being finished, as the most important part of it (acquiring a superstar) is still no where in sight. I mean the whole point of rebuilding is to build a championship contender, right? We have some good assets and good players.. but nothing that other teams would be willing to trade their superstar for. As I said, we still have a long ways to go in the process -- we need to find that superstar at all cost, preferably this year as Dwight/CP3 will most likely be available next year.

 

How bout we look at acquiring blanch or mcGee.....problems in washington,let's get it done morey.........

 

LTF, since I don't want to go through the trouble of quoting each relevant section of your post above, I'll just respond piecemeal:

--On the Lowry trade: I suppose I overstated that the Lowry trade signaled the beginning of the rebuilding. Like you put it, it was the first in a series of moves to make the Rockets YOUNGER. I agree that Morey and Adelman thought Brooks may have been ready to start, but that move was the start of a trend that had the secondary impact of constituting the inception of the "rebuilding" of the Rockets.

--On teams moving up in the 2010 NBA Draft: Like you indicate, I think the Warriors would have been willing to trade #6 and Randolph to move up to get Cousins (especially since they subsequently traded him as a throw-in to just open up some more room to pay David Lee). I'd be willing to bet that they offered that to teams in the top-5. They wouldn't bite. With the hype around Cousins, I don't think Sacramento would have traded out of the top-5 to pick up Brooks even if the Rockets had the #7 pick, especially if what leebigez says is true that they could just make a run at Brooks in free agency in 2011.

--On the need to acquire a top 3-5 pick: I'm not exactly sure how to answer this. I agree with you that the current collection of talent on the Rockets is not championship-caliber. They do need to upgrade their talent. I just feel that the Rockets will never have their OWN pick in the top 3-5 unless they somehow win the lottery with a mid- to late lottery slot. They just will never be THAT bad. I don't necessarily disagree with you that such a talent MAY be what is required for this team to win a championship. But I just don't see that being the avenue unless it is acquired via trade or the Rockets get REALLY lucky.

To use the (ever-so-often used) 2007-08 Boston Celtics comparison, the Celtics managed to get Kevin Freakin' Garnett without having to use a top-5 pick. (Remember, the #5 pick was used to get Ray Allen, but the Rockets already have their Ray Allen in Kevin Martin.) In fact, the Celtics didn't even have to use a top-12 pick to get Garnett.

Boston used a former #15 pick who exceeded expectations (Al Jefferson), a former #18 pick who hadn't yet lived up to expectations (Gerald Green), a former #50 pick who developed into a solid player (Ryan Gomes), a former #13 pick who was viewed as a mild bust (Sebastian Telfair), a large expiring contract (Theo Ratliff), and a couple of draft picks (Boston's 2009 pick, which was never going to be particularly good, and a return to MIN of a protected first rounder from MIN to BOS in a prior trade).

THIS is the type of trade that the Rockets are building towards. Like Danny Ainge did over his first few years as Boston's GM, the Rockets are accumulating as many assets as they can in the hopes that another star somehow "shakes free" (as Morey likes to put it).

The Lakers did it with Pau Gasol, although that was more a product of stupidity/frugality on the Grizzlies' part.

Bottom line: LTF, your opinions are well-respected by this poster. I think we agree on almost all points. I just think what the Rockets WILL TRY to do to improve the team may not necessarily mesh with what you WANT them to do. I am not going to criticize the organization for taking that approach. It will take some patience. And maybe it will fail. But it is at least based on a rationale that makes sense and is probably the most plausible solution if the team doesn't want to stink for an extended period and turn off its fan base in the long run.

 

Bima, none of Morey's admirable rebuilding efforts have gotten us a "franchise cornerstone" (maybe Martin?).

Which is not to say they won't eventually, they just haven't yet.

No way we tank for a top 5 pick, it's not in the DNA of our roster/organization to operate that way. You can't just flip a switch.

Trading assets for a top 5 pick seems like a reasonable (if unlikely) possibility. A team seeking financial relief might be the most open to this, where winning isn't the primary consideration for them.

We should put ourselves in a position to offer such relief.

 

Look the guy is cheap, he is a sleezebag, he wants to save money, he is probably racist, no one has said otherwise.

The question that is asked is, which superstar has he ever let go? The names on your list Danny Manning, Michael Cage, Lamar Odom, they haven't done anything since leaving the Clippers. You could argue that Lamar Odom was the best player the clippers have let go and he isn't even an All-star, he absolute failed as a 2nd option on a contender.

the reason he is seen as a bad owner is that he has never tried to build around his best players, even though it is quite clear that he has NEVER had a championship core with which he could build around.

He is the owner that subscribes to your theory the best, let go of your good but not great players and keep tanking.

 

I hope you had a Merry Christmas, Bima. Hopefully I'll get what I wanted for Christmas in June.

 

I know you don't like me making fun of your theory, but it is exactly what the clippers have been doing.

1. Dann manning had his injury in his rookie season, so it wasn't like the clippers traded him when he was some fantastic player. He was basically a power forward that could score but couldn't rebound.

Michael Cage was a defensive minded role player, great role player to have but certainly nothing more.

Lamar Odom is the third option on a championship team, when he was forced to be a second option, he was absolutely terrible and the lakers couldn't get out of the first round.

In the CBA era, they have kept

Chris Kaman
Elton Brand with max contract
Corey Magette


They have let the following players go

Lamar Odom(max contract)
Chris Wilcox
Quentin Richardson
Michael OlowoKandi
Darius Miles

They signed Baron Davis to free agency contract

Assume they signed every single free agent/lottery pick they've ever had, they would still be nowhere near a championship, it is doubtful they would even get past the first round.

So they let players go who they don't think is worth the money, and continue to hope the lottery gives them luck.

In fact you could say they've been successful, I mean a core of Eric Gordon, Blake Griffin and Chris Kaman sounds pretty good right?

So it worked for the clippers, after 30 years of tanking, they finally (might) have a championship core.

 

Go back and read post 91 and 93.

 

Here's the thing, if the clippers signed every single free agent they've ever had, they would still be no where close to the championship, they've never had a single real bonafide star(before blake griffin who might be that star).

So tell me, how is this different than your position, the clippers at no point in their franchise history has had any player they could legitimately build a championship around, so they continually tanked.

Whether it is because sterling is cheap or whatever, the fact remains that a strategy of blowing up the team when there is no champinship level franchise players on the team, and refusing to build around that team, leads to results like the clippers.

 

You can't look at how the Lakers acquired Gasol or how the Celtics acquired Garnett, because Stern has reportedly dropped the hammer on anymore lopsided trades. Also, no offense, we're not LA or Boston. One has glamor, the other has NBA legacy. We have neither.

Perhaps Morey can pull a rabbit out of his hat, perhaps he can trade for a franchise player or trade for a top five pick. But even if he could trade for a top five pick, it would cost gobs of assets. Why not tank for the pick and keep the assets?

I think Morey will swing some deadline deal, pick us up a very good (but not elite player). Then the Rockets will have a late season surge, be a 7th or 8th seed, and maybe make it to the second round, but no further. This is not progress.

 

Because that does not build a winning culture. How is this so hard to comprehend for you guys? If you tank, you have unhappy players (easier to leave the team), an unhappy coach.

 

If we suck so be it, but you can't mess around with fate trying to predict the future. Look at the celtics when they tanked to get Duncan, that didn't go according to plans.

As for the picks, I never said teams sell lottery picks, just that the teams who would want to acquire a scola or a battier will more than likely only offer late first rounders and 2nd rounders. And if that's the case you can purchase those late rounders like the Rockets have done in the past.


With the contending Kings ,had it not been for the zebras, who was the franchise player? 28 year old Webber? 23pts/10rbs? that should not be hard for Morey to find via trade. =)

No need to purposely tank.