Yao Ming Rejected for Taiwan Charity Visit, China Times Reports

Has it ever occurred to you that we may have done what you suggested? I've been to more than one museums dedicated to Holocaust.

Have you read a comprehensive history book about Japan-Korea or Japan-China wars? Have you been to a museum dedicated to that part of history? I don't think so, or your thinking would be different.

It is gonna be hard to travel half way across the world to get the real exposure, but see if you can get to watch a western movie called "the rape of Nanking". It is not much but should give you a bit of taste of what happened.

 

I am pretty sure that I am better informed on that issue than you are on Japan-China issue.

So what make you think you are in a better position to compare the two?

 

canoner - You are showing very poor judgment in this series of posts. I am very aware that the rape of Nanking was a horrendous atrocity, but the way it happened is not really comparable to nazi methods.

 

Sam, stop downplaying the horrendous atrocity of the rape Nanking.

 

Samfisher, you keep talking about Germen hated Jews, I don't disagree with you there at all. But you need to realize hatred is still a feeling towards other humans. Japanese regarded and treated their victims as if they were ants. You stamp on them and kill hundreds of them in an instant, but do you really feel that you have to kill all the ants in the world?

Is that less cruel than killing humans due to hatred? Not in my opinion.

 

There is no way to argue with ignorance or prejudice.

 

Well, let me put it this way, Canoner. What if instead of the frenzied looting, murder and psychotic behavior and beheadings the Japanese enacted in Nanking - the following scenario occurred:

For several years, decades, and centuries, the Japs figured that Nanking residents were the root of all evil in society, accordingly the Japanese built an entire bureaucracy and industry devoted to compeletly liquidating and exterminating every Nanking ese living or dead. They would either be executed immediately, sent to acampe and worked for a while, medically experimented on, or sent to a giant extermination chamber for systematic, mass killing in order to rid the world of Nanking residents. Let us say that every facet of Japanese industry in Nanking was devoted to the extermination and genocide of Nankingese in the most efficient way possible - i.e. extracting the most value from them as possible, then following up with complete liquidation.

I myself find the alternative scenario posited above to be even more disturbing than what actually happened in Nanking - though no doubt, what actually happened in Nanking was atrocious and disturbing in its own right.

 

The history does go years, decades, and centuries. Hundreds and hundreds of years ago, Japanese taught their children, there is no way they can survive long enough on that small island. But, there is this neighbour China, a big land full of resources. They are going to take that land and make it theirs. Therefore, it was a goal of Japanese generations to invade China, rob whatever is available, occupy as much as possible. Once defeated, they would try again and again. The last attempt was WWII, not sure when would be the next one. You can google for that part of history.

Now Sam, please, are we allowed to be compared with Jewish people? Really appreciate it if you could grant us this previlige.

 

You said the two cannot be compared, so let's see. Given choices, would you

1) work in a camp to almost starvation, walk into gas chamber and die with hundred of other fellows.

2) stand on a street with human head hanging on poles and trees, human limbs all over the street, witness your parents cut in halves, your duaghter raped and then killed in front of you, your pregnant wife cut up and your unborn child pierced on a Japanese sword, and then have yourself decapitated. And tens of thousands of families in the same city are getting the same treatment.

I would like neither, but I know which one I hate slightly less.

 

Not to downplay the crimes of Nazi, anti-Jews was not invented by Hitler. For centuries, Jews had been subject to hatred and mistreatment. Hitler took it to the extreme, but other people, including those in the past, share the blame partially.

 

Please stop downplaying how horrible the Holocaust was. That is just horrible.

Are you guys enjoying your "Which murders were not that bad" argument? I find it terribly offensive.

 

Cannoner and Sam Fisher, I still don't get why you guys continue to compare and Nanking and Holocaust. I think the point is Nanking and Holocaust are both horrific autraucities.

However even if cannoner concede that Holocaust is worse that what the Japanese did to China, what's the stance would he really be conceding? It doesn't mean that what Japanese did is any less important in the course of history, nor should it prevent Chinese posters to bring it up as an analogy to the Holocaust. They are similar in the following way:

1. They are both acts of unparalleled evil.

2. They both happend during world war II, which means it's recent enough in peoples minds, especially those of the affected or the offsprings of the affected party (Chinese and Jews).

3. They are both very sensitive issues for affected or the offsprings of the affected party.

The difference is that one is a lot more well known in the west and the other is a lot more well known in the east.

I knew it was gonna be a dumb dick swinging contest that really doesn't advance the key points of the debate.

 

The whole exchange (and as you can see I am not the only one) started from this pretty incredible statement from the canonman:

What Japanese did to Chinese is only worse than what Germen to Jews..

Suffice it to say that statement is controversial, problematic, and in the opinion of many - obviously wrong.

 

I wasn't downplaying how horrible the Holocaust was. Simply pointing out a fact. I feel some people are not quite aware of the facts. The facts are horrific, no doubt. I take no pleasure describing them.

 

So at least we are making progress. We both now agree that apologies were made, but you were not satisfied with the nature of the apologies, which as I said I understand perfectly and this is of course your right.

I do agree that it is larger than the Neo-Nazis in Germany (who actually do have political seats) and that the deneyers are larger in number and not as ostracised as in Germany, but as I understand it you are overstating the power of these groups, based on discussions with people who are familiar with Japan.

I also think you would be hard pressed to find many people who read newspapers who didn't at least know that there were protests over facts in these textbooks in China and Korea, or over visits to the Shinto shrine, which means that the politicians haven't been too successful in hiding that there is a controversy. I think its fairly well universally known in Japan that the Koreans and Chinese are pissed at them.

I can agree with the general idea that Japanese are much more likely to want to color the argument to minimize the effects, but it is my understanding, again from conversations, that when push comes to shove most people will accept a basic outline of the facts. Again, I have not conducted a personal survey, but this is my understanding from communicating with people who focus on it.

Do you know this for a fact or are you extrapolating? I say this because in my understanding the only textbook that has specifically been complained about is the one mentioned. Can you list the titles of some of the others so I can research them? As I have always understood it the story revolves around the one book.

At the same time I would bet most Chinese people would be upset about the average Japanese book, as the average Native American is unsatisfied about the average American textbook, or the way the average Japanese person is upset about the way American textbooks deal with Hiroshima or Nagasaki. And while it certainly isn’t fair or right, I don’t know if it is reasonable that you should expect 100% satisfaction in this regard. To emphasize again, I realize that this isn't fair or just, but I believe it is simply the way of the world.

If you want to play that game we can talk about all the Germans in the form of Saxons, Vandals, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths. Look up Theodoric or Alaric. The Japanese may have tried to destroy Chinese civilization. They failed. The Germans did destroy the entire civilization of the Roman Empire. They were much more successful and prolific.

Are you still pissed off at the Mongolians because of the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate? Are you fearful and hateful of Mongolians? If you want you can find reason to hate anybody. You can line up with the people who talk about the Crusades 800+ years ago as justification for suicide bombings.

If you are convinced that the Japanese are always going to attack you then quite frankly there is nothing at all that they can do to please you and you should probably just come out and advocate genocide.

 

Simply because you are ignorant of certain facts. As people pointed out, Holocaust is well known in the west and What Japanese did is not. It is not your personal fault, but your ignorance is obvious.

 

As tired as I get about the way some Jews use the Holocaust as a badge of some sort....

The Holocaust was the worst it gets, there's nothing that comes close. It's not the numbers, or the manner (although that's a big part of it), but the fact that the Germans weren't trying to dominate Jews and subjugate them, they were trying to exterminate Jews completely out of existence.

I mean, not just to take their land, but they wanted every Jew in the world exterminated, not a single one left. Nothing can compare to it.

What the Japanese did to Northern Chinese was terrible, and certainly worthy of the label of genocide, but it still doesn't compare. And the communist party took full advantage by letting the Nationalists battle the Japanese and then they could pounce on a weakened rival for power. So in a way, you have to say the Communist party was at least partially complicit and it's a bit hypocritical for them to bemoan Japan and not their own gov't inaction during the time.

 

Sam, the Germans considered Nazi crimes of a high calling should be proof enough of 1) the nature of the Holocaust 2) very importantly, the fact that Germans are looking into the mirror, working hard to AVOID any future occurrance of such inhumanity. Japanese white-washing war crimes is ONLY PROOF of one single thing - they did NOT consider it crime or even wrong doing. You are a smart man, you should be able to tell the difference.

I visited the Holocaust museum in Washington, twice. I studied and worked and lived in Germany before. I do have many German friends, Jewish friends, and Japanese friends. And yes, we did talk about WWII. All the Germans I talked to, they admitted it was absolutely wrong what Nazis did. Most of the Japanese I talked to, I got 3 types of answers 1) I heard about Nanking, it's unfortunate, but maybe the numbers isn't very accurate 2) I heard about Nanking, but we suffered greatly in WWII, and we lost 300K lives from those 2 bombs. 3) Let's not talk about the past. Le'ts look ahead.

Again, Sam, as intellegent as you are, can you tell the difference between 2 nations, especially the way they dealt with past crimes?

 

There you go again with you bashing of the communist party. It is irrelevant. It is between two people, not two political parties. The CCP is less anti-Japan than the Chinese people.

The "weakened" rival still had more than 3.5 million troops, 3 times more than the communists, with full support of US government. Money, equipment, there was no comparison. They were just corrupted to the root. They embezzled the financial from US, and they lost support of the people.

If you want to criticize, direct some of your firepower to the "weakened" rival.

 

Ok ok, ya know, the nationalists were the evil ones. The Japanese were evil too. And The Tibetans were evil and China saved them. Of course, the U.S. is evil, and so is Taiwan.

At what point do you not see a pattern?