Howard would take more rebounds than wilt and durvasa just showed you the stats to back up that statement. You however came with nothing except how we all suck because we are not 60 years old and didn't personally attend Wilt's games. Dwight is probably the best rebounder ever. Sorry.
OK, so durvasa projected that Wilt would average 17 rebounds today per 48 minutes, except Wilt can and did play 48 minutes a game night in and night out, never fouled out of a game, so Wilt will average close to that number as his. That's way more than anyone else. Howard leads the league at 13.5, who's the better rebounder?
per 48 Howard averages 18, against taller stronger players. durvasa's stats only adjusted for available rebounds due to them not being able to hit any shots in that era. Howard is clearly the better rebounder.
In the 71-72 season Chamberlain played against these starting centers Bob Rule, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Elmore Smith, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, Sam Lacey, Walt Wesley, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Tom Boerwinkle, Neal Walk and Bob Lanier. They were taller and stronger than these guys?????? Taller and stronger, REALLY???? I believe there are several hall of famers in this group and some of the ones that aren't were better centers than Howard. Other than an over the hill Shaq, who in the world does Howard play against.
These are like PS3 Numbers! Taking nothing away from wilt, he is one of the greatest of all time. But if Shaq or even Dwight Howard played in that era where everyone else on the court was an average of 1 ft shorter...... It would be like me playing a full court game with my son's 3rd grade class. i would dominate! i could probably score 100 in 48 minutes if i tried hard enough. That being said, and eras aside, Wilt was one of the greatest Centers ever, and his numbers will never be matched.
Very good assessment. But the game log is from 10 years earlier, where none of these centers were around, and he played against much shorter and weaker players. So he was a foot taller than them and probably had a vertical leap of about 6 or 7 inches more than them. No contest.
Put Shaq in his prime back in the same era and I think you get the same if not better numbers. Whats lost is that people tend to talk about height with centers of that era but I think that the more important attributes are agility and strength. Look at this picture of HOF George Mikan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GeorgeMikan.jpg In Simmon's book, he refered to the fact that Mikan had trouble getting up and down the court. Does this 6'10 guy with a Shawn Bradley build and Yao Ming endurance even make it into the NBA today? Now think about putting Shaq in this era. They would literally have to tackle him on every play and take the 50-60% he shoots from the line over what he can do against these centers.
Wow, I hope you're joking. Wilt was one of the greatest athletes ever to walk on the face of the earth. During college he ran track, played volleyball, and played basketball. He still holds Track and Field records in the Big 8 that he set in the 50's. Even Calvin Murphy said that Wilt was more athletic than Dream.
There's way too many influences off the court that have effects too. Between different cultural upbringings (ie huge differences in racial discrimination), money, the basketball system from grade school to the NBA (ie no AAU, 4 yrs of college required), technology, diets, advancements in training, growing up with different levels of competition to push you...it goes on and on. We have no idea how Dwight would have turned out if he was born back then, likewise if Wilt was born only two decades ago. Particularly Wilt was not forced to develop any better when he was already so dominant. EDIT: I also wanted to add Dwight would probably foul out in 5 minutes back then. He would have had to develop a polished offensive skill set and would not be able to rely on sheer physical ability. Conversely, plucking a 60's era Wilt and dropping him into today's NBA, he would get knocked around a bit and would need to adjust to today's physical game. Like I said, too many factors that are not measured fairly by statistics. You might as well compare touchdowns to 3 pointers to compare NFL vs NBA players.
Sorry Durvasa, Didn't mean to get you into a flame thread about Jordan. I always wonder how different players from different era's would have played. Unfortunately playing PS3 or Xbox ain't going to give me a good idea. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on how Jordan might have performed, I know you try to be real detailed in basketball statistics and I appreciate it.
I beg to differ on that one. Dwight isn't even in the top 5 ever. Moses Malone, Dennis Rodman (pound for pound, the greatest ever), Charles Barkley, Dikembe Mutombo, and even Ben Wallace. I'll even throw Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain back into the argument, along with Hakeem Olajuwon. Let's talk more about Dwight Howard, even being against inferior competition (strength opponents, not other HOF worthy players in the league, except maybe old Shaq and possibly often injured Yao (who people say shouldn't be anywhere near the HOF). Who else is out there . . . You have to admit there aren't that many centers in the league who are over the ideal 7,0 and are considered all-star centers. Furthermore, Howard has only average 20 ppg, twice in his career and his numbers are down this season to 17-18 a game. One could say right now that he often has trouble with larger centers (Shaq, Yao, Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace, and the Lakers' front line). While, Wilt on the other hand, averaged more points and rebounds against an admirable list of centers (Abdul Jabbar, Cowens, Reed, Elmore Smith, Bob Lanier, and Nate Thurmond) in his last 5 years (32-36 years old). People can make the argument of Wilt playing against less than worthy players at the beginning of his career. On the other hand, you certainly cannot make the same about the league in the early to mid 70s. Also, it is often cited that he was also one of most intimidating players ever (even though many say he was nice guy)...Dwight does intimidate players away from the paint, but not in the same way that Wilt did. In Dwight's case, you can even draw up a list of 6 to 10 centers actively playing right now, how are as good as 80% of the latter (even excluding Kareem).
Some posters just can't believe player that they never was that good, even though records and his peer group say otherwise. Even if he isn't quite the same athlete as say Olajuwon. One would still think as far as centers go, he is one of standards of the position and probably would have little trouble against today's centers (if you somehow took him from 59 to 73) and put him in today's NBA (2006 to present). Here's what his competition would look like: Top Tier: Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, and Old Shaq Next to Top: Andrew Bynum (with Pau Gasol could move up on level), Chris Kaman, Kendrick Perkins, Marc Gasol, Andrew Bogut. Above Average: Tyson Chandler, Joakim Noah, Andris Beidrins, Brook Lopez, Memhet Okur , Marcus Camby Average: Jason Thompson, Emeka Okafor, Roy Hibbert, Samuel Dalembert, Andrea Barganani, Greg Oden, and Joel Pryzbilla. I see a few tall and big centers on there, but I don't see too many potential Wilt stoppers. He may not average 50 ppg against them, but he can certainly manage 27 - 33 ppg and about 12 -15 rebs a game. His numbers would probably drop-off with less possessions and shooting attempts, but his game in general should have similar effect to what it did in 60s and 70s. There's no above, who has same combination of size, speed, strength, offensive arsenal, and scoring prowess as Wilt. It also doesn't help that most of those guys are powder puffs. It's funny how people talk about a center, like Yao, who is slow, not athletic at all, injury prone, and made of glass, yet he is arguably the best center in this group. Yet, you take a player who is about 4 - 5 inches shorter, but more athletic, an equally as good shooting range, much more durable, more aggressive, and probably much stronger would have too much trouble against modern centers to even start in this league.
Can Howard play 48 minutes a game? Can he actually maintain his rate if he played 48 minutes? Also, give all the players of the 1960's the benefit of modern sports science and they may be as strong and athletic as today's players. Heights back then were measured barefoot, today they're measured with however high platform shoes are necessary to meet "acceptable" height thresholds. Rodman however has a case against Russell and Chamberlain. I have those 3 as the greatest rebounders ever, then Howard and Moses Malone next.
I watch the footage, hear the stories and try to believe the myth but I'm just not impressed. I just see a giant playing among smaller, inferior athletes. I don't see Wilt doing anything on film that a 25 year old Theo Ratliff could not have done 40 years ago.
How dare you compare Tmac to an all time great?!?! You are not a true Rockets fan nor do you understand basketball.
#1 - Lead the league in assists and lead every NBA center who has ever played basketball career assists. #2 - Score 100 points in a game, or even average over 30 ppg in a season (there are HOFs from 60s - 90s who couldn't do that, and you think Ratliff would) #3 - Never fouled out of a game (less than 2 fouls game - 1.98 vs. 2.87 fouls a game and Ratliff even lead the league one year) #4 - When the competition got better in the 70s (I guess this also means taller as well), his FG% went up (though he was a better team). #5 - Run a 440 meters in 49 seconds (The Sporting News: Overbrook High School: Wilt Chamberlain) or even outrun an NFL running back in slacks and bare feet , during his holdout with 76ers and remember this account is coming from Hank Stram. #6 - Play over 43 minutes a game for 14 consecutive years (also remember the pace that those teams played in 60s, Ratliff's career high in minutes per game is 36 (when the league is playing with fewer possessions at a much slower pace) http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/ratlith01.html Ratliff is only 235 (and 6,11 at that), I doubt he could crack the top 5 or 10 in 70s (Cowens, Kareem, Thurmond, Lanier, McAdoo, Gilmore, Elmore Smith, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld). As far as Wilt goes, he got the best of most of those guys. Chamberlain weighed in between 255 - up to over 300 pounds standing at 7,2. It's funny, because in overall size, Wilt would be 3rd to 5th largest player in league (and this comes after Shaq and Yao, who are probably two of the largest men in NBA history). You'd be crazy to imply that Ratliff could show the same skill set as Chamberlain in any decade of basketball. Also, a major point being is he doesn't really need alot of athleticism to be a great modern NBA center. Right now in the NBA, there's very few centers who are athletically gifted, and the ones that are ... seem to be I don't know . . . mental midgets. Another aspect, people do not seem take into consideration when comparing these players, which is Wilt probably smarter than most of these centers.
Theo Ratliff Is nowhere near the player Wilt was, but the point being made is that if you put Ratliff into the 61 season, he probably scores close to 100 points. And he is probably in the HOF today. And someone mentioned Wilt leading the league in blocks today? Blocking a layup from a 5'6" guard is a little different than blocking a dunk attempt by LBJ or DWade.
CASEYH makes my head hurt. Even if you say that both Dwight Howard and Wilt would average 18 rebounds per 48 minutes - Dwight would average 13-14 per game, and Wilt would average 18 per game because only Wilt is going to play 48 minutes. How is the guy averaging 5 fewer rebounds per game the better rebounder again? Per minute numbers are a poor way to evaluate players - after all, the Chuckwagon had ridiculous rebounding numbers per minute when he played 12 minutes per game and that's all he was focusing on. You need to give him more credit for playing at the pace of play he did, not less. If Dwight had to play at that pace of play, he'd probably have to drop down to 30 minutes per game.
