You are right in that these threads are a waste of time. The sad thing is that most Muslims actually care about what people like Gwayneco think. The more I think about it, the less I give a sh*t what John Q. Public thinks about Muslims. I am a law-abiding American Muslim. I am a good friend, relative, and neighbor. I am honest, hard-working, and compassionate. Everyone I know likes me and respects me. I am educated and self-sufficient. In my book, I live a good life and promote good values. Beyond that, people who think I am a savage because I am Muslim can kiss my minority arse
Who said you were a savage? I believe most of these articles deal with Islam/extremists outside the US. Look, I'm sure it probably gets tiring drawing lines between what mainstream Islam says/does vs what fringe Islam says/does - but who better than you to protest fringe Islam?
You are correct. I agree with you in that Muslims of mainstream Islam absolutely need to protest what fringe Islam does. I understand that completely and I also understand that people like Gwayneco can post ELEVEN articles critical of Islam because the material is there to post. Ultimately, it does become the responsibility of mainstream Muslims to fix the problem of their own. I guess the problem I see is that despite the fact that 99.9% of Muslims in America live life the right way and do everything they should, we still get labeled as being violent people and members of a violent faith. It's an uphill struggle for good Muslims everywhere.
Understood. However I find it a little distressing that I get accused of saying all muslims are bad people by glynch - and then you seemingly agree when I've said no such thing. In fact, I've when I've posted about the problems with Islam (IMO) I qualify it by saying - for example 'as practiced' in 'x.' Really I'm just suprised you'd agree with his straw man accusations.
I don't think that you feel that all Muslims are bad people. My response to Glynch was more out of frustration from all of the Gwayneco threads I have been seeing as of late. I respect you and your opinion.
Fair enough, I respect you and your opinion as well. It hasn't gone unnoticed that you don't sugarcoat problems (IYO) within Islam.
Islam started as a small religion less then a 1000 years ago. It spread through conquest and forced conversion and is guilty of what Chrisitianity was as well. And honestly I don't think the west is brutalising the area. Neglected maybe... In any case, none of this justifies violence against innocent people. You can't call Islam a religion of peace and at the same time defend the violence. And despite the fact that it's only carried out by a handful, it's also quietly supported and tolerated by the mainstream populace. You don't hear many islamic clerics in the Islamic world decrying Bin Laden or other groups - what you do hear is excuses. The governments of those countries could have used oil to create a better world for their citizens. They aren't doing that instead choosing to build palaces. They feed of the hate for the west because better the west then them.
Really? Yes, the West didn't 'brutalize' it, they just neglected their duty to civilize the savages of the ME. Hate to borrow anything from bigtexxx' playbook, but please provide me with proof that I 'defended' the violence, because that's nothing short of a misrepresentation of the facts. As a political scientist and a historian, I always look for the 'context' of any world event, for not to do so is nothing short of ignorant, and if you can't understand the root of the problem, you will never find a solution; it's rather simple really, I try to understand all sides involved. As I have said before: violence in ANY case other than self-defense, IMO, is uncivilized. ::Sigh:: I am not going to repeat the THOUSANDS of condemnations of terrorism and violence in the name of Islam which I and numerous other posters presented in other threads. Use the 'search' function and read those for yourself, I won't post them again. I have already come to a conclusion long time ago that some people will just ignore 'inconvenient' facts that might dispel their arguments altogether. Suffice it to say there were more Muslims condemning Muslim extremists than there ever will be Christians condemning their own extremists, many of whom they elect and put in positions of power. I am satisfied enough with the public response, sorry if you aren't. You really should visit sometime those 'oil-rich' nations and see how their citizens live, but you might not want to come back... That I will agree with you. Most governments in the ME are corrupt, and those are the Arab ones, while the largest Muslim nation in the world is a democracy if there ever was one. In fact, they have even elected a Muslim woman to lead them in the past, and their current president is touring the poor country-side giving out his personal cell phone number to local citizens so that he can hear their complaints 'firsthand'. Turkey is another democracy, and some poor, broke, and hungry African Muslim nations are democracies as well, but no one cares about them.
That's been applied to Christianity (any religion...) as well. [broad strokes] Liberal left-wing media's POV = Pro-atheist, Christian bashers Conservative propaganda outlet's POV = Pro Christian denouncers of Muslim totalitarianism [/broad strokes] Round and round we go....
True, but there seem to be a lot more 'Muslims' blowing stuff up these days in the name of their religion (relax knee-jerk McVie-ites).
True, and the reasons are simple once you understand the 'context'; geopolitics my friend, geopolitics.
Post of the year ! Yes, some governments do take care of their people over there with the oil money, but a great many do not..Saudi Arabia, Iraq (pre war), Libya...etc..etc..etc.. Ultimately until this extremism is condemned by the top Mullahs it will continue to be a Islamic scourge....... Most of the worlds terrorists these days are Muslim extremists, doesn't that say there is a problem? DD
You have pretty low standards Sure, there is a problem with Muslim reaction to Western imperialism and neo-imperialism. The tactic of terrorism itself is not unique to any group and has been used extensively in the past and continues to be used today. Muslim extremism can be easily explained and understood through the current political reality in the world, and therefore once you understand the context (ie the fact that the ME region has been the most unstable part of the world, with violence and counterviolence a daily reality) then it's easier to understand why people might resort to such tactics, especially when faced with an overwhelmingly superior 'enemy' (militarily speaking).
Saudi Arabia doesnt take care of its people????? tell that to them who get all those nice roads, education, water, electricity, etc etc free of tax and what in the hell is a mullah? how many other top imams do you want to denounce terrorism. actually, why dont you name the TOP imams in islam, then ill show you who has and hasnt denounced terrorism. and no, osama is not a sheikh or an imam.
they obviously arent doing ANYTHING for the betterment of their people other than the roads, hospitals, universities, orphanages, etc etc, all for free, all free of income tax, what else can a citizen of a country ask for?
Or the cutting off of the hands or theifs, the mutilation of female genetalia, the allowing of honor killings, etc..etc..etc.... Yes, the region is unstable, and if it weren't for oil there would still be tribal warfare among the various religious sects. And what are they teaching in those schools? Do the people have religious freedom, are women treated as equals.... Bah, many of these countries are just run be evil dictators hiding under the coat of the Islamic religion. DD
wait wait, your mixing two arguments, this was about the oil rich countries and their efforts in doing better for the people... now if you want to argue islamic punishments/something about mutliation start a new thread, please
No, it is about governments and how they are helping the people, I find them completely related, they are certainly doing great things, but that does not allow you to ignore the barbaric ones, does it? DD
