Why are there no videos of Russell Westbrook's stat padding?

So you think Westbrook deserves the MVP or what? Spit it out.

 

Of course not. Westbrook shouldn't even be in the discussion b/c of OKC's record. I think Harden deserves it, and I've already bet $100 on it.

However, I do think some of the arguments supporting Harden are flawed (i.e. "weaker supporting cast than Westbrook") so I'll rebut the ones I disagree with.

 

Anderson has missed 4 games, 6 for Gordon, 14 for Beverley, Capela missed 15, Nene 12 games. That's 51 games missed by important guys in terms of minutes.

Vegas thought the Rockets would be unhealthy for a lot of the year? Guess what, they were right. Yet Harden has carried his guys through every game. Point is, my point stands. Harden has roughly the same tools at his disposal but he's doing more with it.

(p.s. I'm pulling for you to win your bet)

 

We've been surprisingly healthy. Vegas doesn't care about guys like Nene/Capela. Maybe not even Beverley. Before the season started, we didnt know if Gordon was going to start or come off the bench. When talking about injury, it's mainly Anderson and Gordon, our major offseason acquisitions. Look at their injury history for their careers. For those guys to have missed only 10 combined games this season is incredible.

 

Because we were talking about offense and defense. Seems like the logical metric to use would be one that has both offensive and defensive components. Also, as you said, PER doesn't properly incorporate defense. So in a discussion that includes defense, why would I knowingly use a flawed metric? Shooting %'s are limited because they don't paint a clear picture. I'd much rather have Gordon and his far superior range despite shooting a marginally inferior %.

Oladipo generally doesn't shoot 3's unless he's wide open. He's never been a good 3pt shooter. In fact, this is the first year he's shot better than 35%.

I haven't moved goalposts at all. When I talk about being a better fit for our system, that goes to a player's skillset, and a player's skillset determines how good he is. With Gordon, I give him bonus points for being able to consistently shoot from 27 feet away.

No, Adams wouldn't be nearly as productive as Capela in our system. And who cares if he shoots 67% at the rim? My point is that he wouldn't get to the rim as often as Capela b/c he's slower with a much lower vertical.

We fear the Clippers? Really? The same Clippers team we blew out on their home court? As for the Grizzlies, we've only faced them twice this year with Capela, and we won both games fairly easily.

Sorry, again, I haven't moved the goal posts. And you know what's silly? Assuming that we would've had comparable success with Horford instead of Ryan Anderson. It's actually laughable b/c in Boston, Isaiah Thomas and Horford are having their minutes staggered. It turns out that they're a better team when they play fewer minutes together. Also, it's not a coincidence that we went after Horford. We went after guys who could play a stretch 4, and we went after Horford w/ max money b/c, despite Anderson being a better fit next to Harden, Horford is a better overall player.

Also, your original "top 3 players after Westbrook are better than the Rockets" argument is clearly wrong, especially since 2 of those guys (Adams and Kanter) play the same position and basketball is played with 5 players, not 4.

Do you really think that Oladipo/Adams/Kanter/Roberson/Abrines are better than Gordon/Capela/Anderson/Beverley/Ariza? Would you be willing to start a poll in another site (i.e. Lakersground) for a tipjar wager?

And you'd be wrong. The production that Kanter/Adams/Oladipo currently produce isn't worthy of the max. However, there's potential that, because of their young age, they'll go to the next level. OKC isn't giving them a multi-year max for the players they currently are. The multi-year max is for the players OKC hopes they'll evolve into.

Wrong. Beverley is easily having the best year of his career. So is Harden. And both Gordon and Anderson have been surprisingly healthy....especially Gordon. Gordon has already played 66 games this year which is more than every year since his rookie year. Those 4 guys have easily outperformed their expectations.

Wrong again. Player skillsets aren't opinions. They're facts. And given that the Rockets want a stretch 4 and don't want a one-on-one player in the post, the logical conclusion is that having Kanter instead of Anderson would be detrimental to the offense.

 

You honestly think that Vegas only thinks about a few players before placing a value on a team? Vegas is smarter than that. Also, starters missing games is a big deal, regardless of what you think.

 

It's clear you don't bet on games.

 

Haha, because betters are the smartest people ever, right? House wins over time. Don't get high degenerate and mighty on me. If you don't think Vegas factored in Beverley's injury and Capela being a first year starting center, you shouldn't be betting.

 

No, b/c if you did bet on games, you'd know how Vegas lines move in response to player injuries. Regardless of what you think, starters missing games isn't always a big deal.

On an unrelated note, I do think it's funny that someone who doesn't bet on games thinks he knows how Vegas establishes lines.

 

Yes, but real plus minus is an arguably flawed metric as well. Those flaws don't matter?

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/4/8/5594238/problem-with-real-plus-minus

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2014/4/9/5591108/jae-crowder-problem-espn-real-plus-minus-rpm

Because it's obvious to anyone that Oladipo is the superior defensive player. So if he grades higher than Gordon in a metric that favors offense while discounting defense......

As far as rather having Gordon's range, that's a system thing and doesn't equate to him being a better player.

Yes, you have (see your bolded statement). I am noting who the better player is, not who is a better fit for our system. The false narrative spreading is Harden is playing with much better talent than Westbrook, who is "suddenly" playing with scrubs. No, Westbrook is playing with better players than Harden. Are our coaches and star player making better use of our players? Sure. But that doesn't equate to our players being better than theirs. Stop moving the goalposts.

Sure he would. Adams has great footspeed. Rewatch the playoffs last year and you will hear them rave about it. He is not bad around the rim (hence his 67%....there ya go with the "who cares" on relevant info you don't like again).

The rest of your post is more of your opinion. Are you a scout? Do you have a job in the league? If not, then all of your takes on players skillsets or how they would fit into a system is simply your opinion, like pretty much everyone else on this forum.

 

Jebus, hombre... I said preseason. You've been assuming too much and not reading carefully enough. I know the line moves, but what is established is what Westbrook and Harden had in the beginning of the year. And that was 43.5-44 wins for both, I believe. In Vegas. Odds made by people that have no dog in the fight other than themselves.

 

Sure they do. Which is why I took the liberty of listing the low-usage players in between Adams and Capela. To illustrate that while they were ranked 12 spots apart, the difference isn't really as big as you'd think.

In your opinion, which is a better metric for a player's offensive contributions. PER or ORPM?

Absolutely wrong. Gordon's range is a skill that has NOTHING to do with the system. Corey Brewer played in the same system. Did we see him shooting 27 ft 3pointers? What about Ariza? Or Beverley?

I haven't moved the goalposts at all. You simply don't understand my argument. How good a player is depends on what he can do, right? And that means we're talking about skillset. And regardless of what you think, Gordon's ability to shoot from 27 feet is a skill.

Also, Harden clearly has the better supporting cast. You've gone out of your way to frame the argument as the 3 best players after Westbrook, but what about the 4th and 5th? Sabonis and Roberson? Trash. In other words, OKC had 2 gaping holes in it's starting lineup.

The reason I keep saying "who cares" in response to your arguments is not b/c I dislike the info. It's that the info is irrelevant. For instance, you said that Adams would be as effective as Capela in the pick and roll. However, Capela is quick off the pick and can jump much higher than Adams, so logically, he'd get many more lob opportunities than Adams. And how do you respond? By citing Adams' fg% around the rim. That's a fun fact, but it's 100% irrelevant.

Do I need to be a scout or have a job in the league to look up a player's stats? What kind of advanced training do I need to see a player continuously make shots from 27 feet to determine that he's capable of making shots from 27 feet?

 

Is there a stat for free throw rebounds?

I recall some research in the past that tried to put a value on rebounds depending on how contested they were. One could presumably come up a "value added through rebounds" stat. Would be interesting to see where Westbrook rates by such a metric.

 

I'm reading just fine. The problem is, you put so much faith in Vegas' over/under without understanding how that number came to be. You (and many other on this board) think that we have a weak supporting cast (b/c Vegas says so!) and we're doing as well as we are b/c Harden is carrying us. And that would be wrong. Projections are primarily based on recent performance, and we finished at .500 last year. Harden had a down year last year. So did Beverley. Gordon and Anderson were in New Orleans, and Gordon missed almost half the season. We lost Dwight, and Capela, who often looked overwhelmed last year, was now slated to be our starting center. And on top of all this, we brought in a new coach with a different offensive philosophy. There were plenty of reasons to doubt us.

Remember, projections aren't reality. Don't think of them as such.

 

Westbrick stat padding again, he knew his team was done, he just came back for triple double and jacking some more to get more points or possibly try to match up with harden's 40 point triple double

Doesnt matter we still got the win.

 

He got it down to 8. So was harden stat padding too for coming back in?

 

Thats cuz he was playing against Rox B team. Normally other teams would give up and not risk further injury to their star player Westbrick oth lives for the miments when he plays against the benches of other teams so he can stat pad harder.

 

We were playing very loose defense in 4Q. Probably everyone thought the game was over by 3Q, which is true.

 

there are however wb's trip doub stat padding trackers

 

To me, it says more about us not having learned the lesson of blowing big leads in a short time than about Westbrook padding stats.