Historically, we've had more separation than most European nations, i.e. England still has a national church, and outside of schools, or opening our legislative and judicial sessions with short non-sectarian prayers, we've done ok on the religion question. The problems you see now are more from a European secularism that is more often then not anti-religion rather than religion neutral. The court, 90% of the time, gets the answer right, even if their reasoning isn't great. Religious liberty questions are good thought exercises.
The problem is that both sides, religious and non-religious, want the entire field. Conflicts are unavoidable in certain situations, such as what should be taught in the biology class. It's hard to say who's encroaching who. So I don't buy your argument.
Get busy and you miss all the fun in D&D Top Ten how to 'share the faith' for Jesus: 10. Any goofy bumper sticker - that really impacts people 9. Wear a religious T shirt- that's for people who go around reading T shirts 8. Picket an abortion clinic- getting arrested for Jesus is cool 7. Send money to TV preachers- better than losing all your blessings 6. Vote republican- that one worked didn't it??? 5. Get 'em in your car and blast the Christian music- it will hypnotize them 4. Accidently let them see you have a bible- I meant HOLY bible 3. Hound them for days asking them to accept Jesus- scary 2. Just be up front tell the filthy sinner "you're going to Hell- (screaming in their face adds effect) and the #1 way to share the faith for Jesus- there is not a #1 way- few actually do in fact according to a survey by Campus Crusade for Christ less than 2% of all Christians in actual practice share the faith with others
I've seen this sentiment before and I have yet to see it substantiated. There is more religious freedom today in this country than there has ever been. People mistake Christianity losing its preferential place in our society as a general attack on religious freedom. That is not the case at all and religious freedom for all religions is stronger now than ever.
Sorry, not the most articulate person in the world. Donny was making the argument that separating religion and government is a good thing because then religion will die out (I at least think that's what he was advocating). I was arguing that in America, we have a very balanced system from the beginning, from our country's outset we had a pretty healthy separation compared to most of the world, i.e. Church of England run by the monarchs, close ties between France's monarchy and the Catholic church, etc. And then now, we have what Europeans would deem too much integration, pledge, money, that damn Declaration, school vouchers, etc, things I think the court is absolutely correct on, and we are being told by a very hostile secular Europe that we are too allied with religion. For what it's worth, I think we get things right about 90% of the time, and think it's kind of funny that Europe went from having the church in it's back pocket, to absolutely hating anything religious. So essentially, I was refuting Donny's point that taking religion out of government will kill it, for we have had a pretty strict separation and it's flourished here.
I think I follow your point and agree with it. Separating church and state is one of the reasons why religion, as a whole, flourishes here. Without a state church all sorts of different religious practices can rise up free of governmental regulation. That is part of the reason why I say religious freedom is greater now than it has ever been. The more that symbols and practices specific to one religion have been stripped out governmental functions the more it allows the free expressions of other religions.
twhy77, i don't think euros hate religion, they view it as an antiquated paradigm. i'm not sure what you think our court gets right "90%" of the time. nobody in europe is advocating the "outlawing" of religion but they tend to relegate it to a personal freedom. i think they have it about right.
Using that as a jumping point, one could say governments can take the role of religion for people in a secularist atheistic environment. Nationalistic tendencies such as pledging to the flag, singing the anthem while standing, or the good ol' American Dream. Even our cultural constructs of freedom and equality are as tangible as salvation and enlightenment. Isn't that how we promote our involvement in Iraq or Afghanistan? For them to "know" freedom? That's not to say that nationalism itself will have the pull of organized religion. Age is on religion's side. But both tap into cultural wells, and they become ways of living for many. It does partially explain why countries like China or Japan are highly nationalistic. Something for atheists to chew on how "real" things must be and their quest to live a life free from delusion.....
Although some of the recent laws and discussions coming out of France in recent years definately show a hostility towards religion. For that matter infringing on the personal freedom too.
To the original question: It seems that the majority of the human race is programmed (I believe by God, but it could be evolution to help us get along) to believe in something greater than ourselves. Whether it's a life-force, a God or gods, alien overlords, or just a powerful person, most of us have a desire to have faith in something. Some people don't have that desire, but they seem to be the minority. It seems that if that faith is directed towards positive things, it is a force for good. When religion is outlawed, the tendency is for people to direct that faith toward powerful people, who tend to be tyrannical.
Oh goody. An opportunity for me to throw around more Jefferson quotes... Seems to me that Tom would appreciate the distinction drawn between faith and religion earlier in the thread.
But Jefferson wasn't the only Founding Father, and in terms of Constitutional Law, Madison has had much more influence on our understanding of religious liberty than has Jefferson. Madison was much more balanced in terms of his understanding of separation, and even in Hugo Black's revisionist history in Everson, Madison wins the day.
The policy banning hijabs and wearing large crosses is one. Today Sarkozy suggested the Burka should be banned in France.
That is not what I was saying at all. I was saying that if you remove religion from government that the hostility toward religion will decrease.
I dunno about that. Hostility towards Protestant and Catholic religions in the last 20-30 years hasnt decreased with a decreased "influence" in public arenas(schools, gov't buildings). Granted, those institutions have given many reasons to cause the hostility(pedophiles in priest roles, megachurch pastors with personal aircraft for examples). Then again, its probably just the fringe elements who are against the general Christian religions that are skewing the perception. Not necessarily the run of the mill folks who tend to view it like other religions and figure that people will believe what they will believe.
