No, but it is not exactly a separation of church and state. The idea for Thanksgiving from the Pilgrims to Washington was to give thanks to God for all we had been given. As Washington proclaimed: Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness. Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be. That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks, for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation, for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his providence, which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war, for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed, for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted, for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord. To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best. Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789. from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States) Christmas, on the other hand, is an overtly religious holiday in which the government pays you to take the day off.
Not really the argument I was making, but it's nice to know you turn to South Park for arguments! :grin: No really, Happy Thanksgiving all D&D.
So what were you trying to say? Looks to me like this is saying "Hey all you anti-religion folks, you're welcome for getting you out of work! p.s. you're welcome in advance for Christmas, too." And my SP reference wasn't supporting an argument, because I wasn't making an argument. I was making an observation. Argument = correcting or contradicting what you said. Observation = my interpretation of your post. If I interpreted it wrong, fair enough. But it seems pretty obvious that you're trying to jab the anti-religion folk for taking off work on "religious" holidays despite not being religious. Kind of the same crap where people say "bet you still spend that money with 'God Bless America' on it!". Or as I said before, you could be making the suggestion that days off = good. religions = holidays. holidays = days off. therefore, religion = good. :grin:
Happy Holidays to you too! (Thanksgiving is an American holiday. Christianity predates America by about 1600 years. It's a huge stretch to attempt to associate the two.) ((Christmas is a Christian holiday if you're celebrating Jesus' birth. Otherwise, it's a secular holiday about gift giving. Almost everything associated with Christmas is not related to Jesus' birth.)) (((Ho Ho Ho)))
You need a jump to conclusions mat. I said anti-religion in my first post, not Christianity. The Thanksgiving tradition was started as a thanks to God by the pilgrims and then recognized by the Founders. To be fair, Jefferson was against giving thanks to God, but he also wanted us all to live on farms. On your Christmas point, you mean gift giving like the Magi did with the Christ child? You mean the tradition that flowed from the Christian tradition? You mean before Christmas became pervasively secular, the government was clearly in the wrong for acknowledging Christmas and giving everyone the day off? All I'm saying is there's a bit of a double standard in those who want a completely secular government and then just turn their eyes away from the history behind what we do on holidays and hide behind an argument that, well, we've just made things secular now. A full separation of church and state is impossible. Just enjoy the days off and let's all take off our panties and quit complaining.
The point was simple and I think you got it, I just didn't think the we have cookies argument was what I was trying to say. See the final paragraph in my reply to Azadre.
To be fair, your original post begged a lot of questions. So I wouldn't crack on people for it. Just be a little more clear.
It was meant to be tounge-in-cheek. Is there a smiley for that? I thought the big grin would convey my thoughts.
That is interesting and if we stuck with that basis I would say that Thanksgiving violates church and state if it was set aside as a day of worship. I think like Thanksgiving, and New Years which also had religious connotations, if the holiday is specifically set aside for worship purposes. I think from the establishment standpoint its just another day off for whatever reason the same as MLK day. Although I find the language of the establishment of the Thanksgiving skirts if not crosses the the Establishment clause.
Sadly this is so. A personal crusade of mine is to try and not frequent any stores that are open on a holiday. I think the stores should be closed, and I wont contribute to their profit margin on that day.
And according to most historical records Jesus wasn't born on Christmas but the Church co-opted Saturnalia.
It depends on the Justice and the rationale behind the law. Blue laws are upheld, because the court can find a secular purpose in addition to religious purposes. Unless of course, you are Justice Stevens, then everything is an establishment clause violation. The current rationale for Thanksgiving and Christmas being ok is that it represents "ceremonial deism". The legal realist in me says that's just a cop out to try and keep everyone happy, and I'm ok with that.
What would that matter though? The history and tradition from way back are that this is the day to celebrate the Christ Mass, the birth of the savior. That's what Christmas is.
I have no problem particularly with a religious origin for Thanksgiving or Christmas but am interested in the legal issues. Whether it represents "ceremonial Deisism" I see no problem with just saying we are taking the day off and people are free to do with it what they will. I think though where there is an official acknowledgement of a religion that is problematic. I think with Christmas and Thanksgiving they have been grandfathered in for cultural reasons but I doubt we will have another holiday declared using the language Washington used without a major Establishment Clause challenge.
Obviously as a non-Christian its not a big deal to me what day Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus but just pointing out that from its begining there was a political reason to do it. As such there is a strong secular component for the particular date and nature of celebration.
You could argue the reason was political, but the stronger argument is that it was cultural. The Church where ever it goes always looks to elevate the current culture to being Christian, i.e. 3 hour long masses in Africa, etc.
