I like how you say when he wants to. Because last season and the season before that I found myself yelling at the tv when Tmac could of did something, letting loose balls roll by or a playing loosely ball on defense.
Hard to say between these two, but I do know this much...Battier/Artest are a nightmare matchup for high scoring wings, even more so than Pierce/T.Allen/J.Posey.
According to NBA GMs, Artest is the number 2 defender in the league behind KG. According to GMs, Battier did not even make the top 5 list.
IMHO, a short-sighted conclusion. First, pre-season is irrelevant. You've got borderline NBA players jacking up shots and not truly understanding who to pick up in transition when shots are frequently missed. Secondly, it's very debatable that Battier is the better transition defender given that Artest is far the superior physical specimen. This ties in to why Battier picks up so many charges. He leaks out early in transtion D to cover for his lack of footspeed. Thirdly and for all practical purposes, Battier can only score from the short corner arc. If he's on...fine. If he's off, those are long rebounds that put the other team instantly into transtion while Battier disregards rebounding for transition. Count me in with the group proposing Artest as better in man to man and a slight edge to Battier for understanding half-court team D concepts. But it's deeper than that...you can't easily determine the impact Artest has on the opponent's transition because it's hard to quanitify how much energy he takes away from the player defending him.
Artest can lock up on D against PFs and any other position. Shane can't do that as well given his frame. Battier is a better team defender I agree though.
It's clearly Artest. I have seen Battier frustrate the hell out of people and make them work, but rarely do I see him just shut a stud down. Artest can do this....
It's still a toss up for me. I don't think there is really a clear-cut better defender between the two. Ron Artest has the advantage in steals and versatility, whereas Battier has the advantage in taking charges and a somewhat edge, IMO, in blocks. I agree that Battier is a better team defender though.
Point taken about the preseason. Artest is a superior physical specimen in terms of strength and quickness. Battier has better length, and he understands the angles well enough to take full advantage of that length on defense. That's why he regularly is amongst the leaders in blocked shots, even though he primarily defends guards and is not gifted athletically. Artest is a great face up defender. Meaning if the ball is ahead of him, he'll pressure the hell out of the ball and jump in passing lanes. I think being a good ,consistent transition defender requires some other qualities. You have to be thinking defense during your team's offensive set. Granted, Artest has FAR more offensive responsibilities, so that part is easier for Battier. I think Battier may also be better in understanding how to position himself when the other team has the numbers advantage (e.g. 2-on-1, 3-on-1 fast breaks). Good point also in taking account how much energy he takes from opponents with his offense. Those are one of those intangibles -- you really can only see those effects by looking at how the team's offensive numbers change with Artest on the floor over many, many games.
Artest gambles too much. Shane is real solid, not flashy and he can guard Dirk. I'm watching Hornets vs Suns, Peja is making a killing. Shane limited Peja to 30% shooting against us last season.
Artest is super aggressive. He can defend in many ways. He wont let the damn Jazz beat Rokcets. Tru warrior plays game like going into a war. Battier, always playing elegant defense, could not even find someone to defend in Jazz playoff series. Artest is a much better defender than Battier, in playoffs and big games.
durvasa, imo, coaches choose who will be a transition defender based a lot on their offense. If you can score in the low post and consistantly out-rebound your opponent, the coach will want you near the basket, limiting your ability to get in front of a transition offense. battier is a perimeter scorer which makes him a prime candidate for anchoring your transition defense. Artest can score in the low post and get offensive rebounds...those prevent transition points just as well. point is, would you call Kobe or Jordan good transition defenders...well, it's hard to play transition defense when driving to the basket and miss...or do a baseline turnaround jumper and miss.
I think they're very good transition defenders. They're both uncanny in their ability to get back and get deflections against the other team's fast break. Battier has a similar ability. Maybe Artest does as well, I don't know. I haven't seen that yet. But you're right, slashing players with a bigger offensive role won't be relied on as much for getting back in transition. That doesn't change the fact that Transition Defense is an important part of a team's defense, and it should be factored in when assessing the totality a player's contribution on that end. I guess the main question I posed here was if you were defending on a final possession, who'd you rather have. I guess this transition D debate is sort of a moot point for that.
Adelman comments on the transition defense issue, and briefly about the difference with Battier and Artest: [rquoter] In the Rockets preseason game against the Thunder, Oklahoma City had 19 fast break points. In the Rockets’ game Thursday against the Mavericks, they allowed 37 points on the break. With another game against the Thunder, there was an emphasis on cutting off the break, but Rockets coach Rick Adelman said that more is needed than to just turn around and run fast. “It’s habits that you have, too. If one of our perimeter people goes to the basket, the other two have to get back, and we weren’t doing that. I think sometimes guys aren’t used to doing it, Tracy (McGrady) and Ron (Artest) in particular. That’s one thing Shane (Battier) always did for us; he was always back. “We just have to concentrate on it. If you’re not going to the boards, and you see somebody penetrate, you’ve got to get [back]" [/rquoter]
They are different defenders for sure. I belive Battier is better team defender, he is better at taking charges, etc. Ron Artest is better one on one, he is just stronger. He plays with his body and can simply stop any player in this leauge. Right now I'd take Ron because of his toughness.
