Uganda was offerd to Herzel but after bringing the offer up for talk in the zionizt parlament it was turn down by jewish representive from all over the world. They did not try to bribe the ottomans but wanted to buy the land by paying the ottoman debt, the plan did not work out only because the ottomans debt was too big and the first world war was about to start, they were not disgusted by the idea you can learn that from the fact that they agreed to talk about it with the zionist leaders. the arabs did ally them self with the germans, that forced the british to send forces to Iraq and other oil rich countrys because there was a theraet to their intrest there many arabs identified with the racisem of the german ageinst jews. In the F-16 and Appache bombings no one was hurt, the IDF bombed empty buildings and have been doing so for the last several month. Every naiton in the world has a right to defend it's civilian pupolaiton, Is it proper to ask Israelis to surrender their basic right to self-defense? The 82 case you are talking about was at sabra and shatila camps and the killing was made by the christien "Falangot" groups in retaliation to the killing of their leader by palastinians, sharon was accused because he was the minister of security in the israeli goverment, there are no evidence that he knew what was going on at a stage when he could have stop it. The international comunity is ignoring the simple fact that Arafat is a terrorist the PLO have commited so many violent acts ageinst civilians-the munich olympic killing of israeli sports man, infeltraiton to kibutzim in the north of israel doing the 70's in which tens of kids and women found their death, the terror act called here in israel "the blood bus" in which palastinian took over and killed a bus full of kids on their way to school, the mass murder of students in a school at maalot and so many more acts that the international comunity simply forgat about, shouldn't he be trailed, he is responsible not only for israeli suffer but for palastinian suffer to he and his leaders are consisently using the money that was give to them by the naiton of the world in order to take care of the palastinian pepole, for their own personal use and bank accounts all over the world, Arafat has an interest in not finishing the conflict because that way he can tell his pepole-"look we are in a state of war so i cant give you more then bread and water" that way his pepole can not say anything about him stealing their money and their food and the international media countinues to focus on the violent conflict. "Fighting for independence means you're fighting for the right to self-govern"-exectly, you cant self govern your self if you are dead can you? we were given the right to self govern our self and had to fight for our survival and that right. Israel was formed after a political afforet by jews before, doing and after the 2nd world war and the holocaust that was one way of figheting for independence because after haveing 1 third of your pepole murdered by a killing machine and having no country of your own it's your only way to fight.
Israel was given to the "Jewish People" (trying to clarify that I don't dislike Jews but only those who oppress innocent people in Palestine...there are numerous Jewish groups that don't recognize the authority of Israel over the land of Palestine) by British in the Balfour Declaration signed on November 2nd, 1917. "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours tofacilitate the achievenment of this object..." Now this is the problem. At that time the British didn't have Palestine. So can we (Americans) give Japan to Australia? No because we don't have Japan. So this whole notion of a country giving another land which isn't in its posessions to a country is ridiculous. The next few words, in the Declaration talk about how there should be no prejudice against those who are living there currently (at that time meaning the over whelming Muslim majority and some Christians). Please explain to me the reason for Israel having different plates for the Palestinians? and at every check point the Israeli plates are allowed free access while the Palestinian (Christian and Muslim) are not? There are numerous recorded incidents, during the best times of the peace process a couple of years ago, where people in ambulences died due to these absurd checkpoints which wouldn't even let go pregnant mothers giving birth to their children. Israel broke the Peace accord it signed day in and day out even before the 'second intifadah'. It regularly established Jewish settlements in the Palestinian area. Your right yesterday and the day before no one died due to these bombings because the Palestinians know better than to live in a place thats marked for bombing virtually. However go search news.bbc.co.uk under "F-16 and Israel' and I assure you...you'll find numerous cases where those military weapons killed people. After all you use those things to kill people...thats what they do best.
you have managed to ignore what i said about Arafat. I think that at 1917 the british already had control on israel or they were fighting for it, it's not the first time an agreement is agreed before having the land in your hands just like the u.s u.k and soviet russia divided germany berlin and other places before taking over them at the 2nd world war. at the U.N. vote november 29 1947 the U.K. did not vote for nor ageinst the jewish state, that was the vote that made Israel happen. "during the best times of the peace process a couple of years ago"-even doing those times there was always the chance of a suicide bomber by hamas or the islamic jihad, if you remember after Rabin was murderd Peres came to power, no one can say peres is ageinst peace doing the year he was in power there were so many suicide bombings in israel that he lost the next elections, there was always the danger and now when arafat is meeting with hamas leaders daily talking about a palastinian national unity goverment he is connecting him self to terror once agein, soldiers must be hard on pepole in chackpoints because if they weren't there would have been a "sbarro case" at least once a week, i agree that sometimes there are cases where the chacking is to hard but if we weren't constantlu theretend the chacking could have been more normal. About the F-16 and helicopter bombing-since the start of this intifada israel gave the palastinian enough time to leave their staitons before bombing them in retaliaiton to bombings in israel barak started it and sharon is doing it also.
today there was another suicide bombing this time 300 meters from my house in kiriyat motzkin, I was out with my dog and heard a big blast, I took him up then ran over there and tried to help as much as I can, just so you will know Arafat as relesed 3 terrorists that helped the suicide bomber in the Tel-aviv bombing where 20 teenagers found their death.
For the record in Israel everyone has to join the military for a certain time frame. So there certainly aren't any civilians besides the kids of course. Honestly I regret the 'suicide bombings' however I fail to see how its so evil of these Palestinian refugees whose homes are occupied and whose lives are made hell. It's a horrible situation which can't get better unless Israel see that they aren't so innocent in this and are oppressors who've finally made the oppressed so weak that the oppressed dont' even have fear of death anymore. They're wives and daughters are raped, they can't earn a living, their kids are shot at even if they're 8 years old.
In 1947 the Arabs were offered their own state alongside the area being granted to Israel. The answer from the Moslem was, we will never live in peace with the Jews, rather we will drive them into the Mediterranean. In the weeks leading up to May 14, 1948, the Moslems spread the word that the Zionist pigs were going to take away the Arab's homes, rape their wives and daughters and plunder all that the Arabs possessed. Due to the fact the Arabs were largely uneducated and relied on gossip as opposed to facts, they fled their homes in Israel and ran for the Jordan Valley. On May 15, 1948, just one day after Israel's Declaration of Independence, five Arab nations attacked the infant state. Bear in mind there were only 675,000 Jews in Israel versus more than 50 million Arab Moslems. The Moslem nations called for the Arab residents of the area to get out of the way in light of the coming invasion, promising them a quick defeat of the Jews and an opportunity to plunder Jewish property and homes following their victory. After eight months of fighting, a cease-fire was established and the Arabs who fled could now no longer return to their willfully vacated property. This was the beginning of the Palestinian refugee problem or the "Plight of the Poor Palestinian" as so-called by the media. Following the War of Independence, Jordan took control over the region of Judea and Samaria on the West Bank of the Jordan River (which extends to Jerusalem) and annexed the territory illegally with no outcry from the international community whatsoever. Egypt likewise controlled the Gaza Strip region as well as the Sinai Peninsula. The Palestinian Arab population, many living in their own villages and some in UN constructed refugee camps, were under the authority of neighboring friendly Arab Moslem countries. The irony of it was they were now in the very territory allotted to them as their state by UN resolution #181 of 1947, which had apportioned them a state next to the Jewish State. This was the very territory they had declined, preferring to have it all! It was not too late! At that time they could still have clamored for their own state but they did not. The question is why? Why did they not lay claim to the land as their state? To understand this one must understand something of the Moslem mentality. Islam is a non-tolerant religion and cannot peacefully co-exist with any other religion. Therefore, rather than live alongside a Jewish state in peace the Moslem nations chose to use the Palestinian people as pawns for sympathy, political manipulation and economic gain. The neighboring Moslem countries elected to keep these people locked in a prison of dirty politics and abuse giving them no chance for economic gain, education or a future with real hope. It was the Moslem nations who did this to their own people. Using them to deceive the world and pressure Israel into compromises. The filth, squalor and overall conditions of these refugee camps are awful. The neighboring Moslem countries could have alleviated this suffering, had they so desired. In June of 1967, Israel, learning of a certain attack upon her by her enemies, went to war after 19 years of continued skirmishes and acts of terrorism perpetrated against her by the Moslems. The result of the Six-Day War was Israel's liberation of the Jordan Valley and the West Bank, the Old City of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and the Sinai. Israel increased her landmass from 8,000 square miles to 26,000 square miles. During the war, the refugees in the Jordan Valley fled across the Jordan River into Jordan and those in the Golan fled into Syria, with most in the Gaza Strip and Sinai fleeing to Egypt. Sad as it was, they were not welcomed and rather than being accepted became the lowest class among the people. The Palestinian Arabs have been fed a steady diet of hatred, anger and vengeance. They have been told the Jews are responsible for their every problem and the answer is to kill as many as they can at all cost. The Moslem world operates on the same system as many historical revisionists in America today, and that is, if you tell a lie often enough it becomes true! So who is to blame? Israel or palestinian arab leadership? Why not just blame the U.S. for allowing these things to happen? Blame is a hard thing to accept, but easy to pass on.
Clinton's representative to the last peace talks has just come out and blamed Arafat for their failure. I feel that people who blame Israel for the current situation have their heads up their tokhes! If I were in Sharon's shoes, I would have Arafat assassinated, and I would take back the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. I would force the Palestinians who were problems out of the area. I would then get ready to hammer Egypt and Syria, and definitely strike out at Iraq. The time for playing games is over. Israel is the only Democracy in the region, and we should support them fully. The Arabs have now proven that they don't really want peace, so they should get what they deserve. Netanyahu had the region under control, because he understood that peace can only be obtained through the threat of force in that region. Clinton, seeking a Nobel prize, sent James Carville and his team help elect Barak. Barak started giving into to Palestinian demands on a regular basis, and now the situation has deteriorated badly. Arafat says there can be no peace with Sharon, but the truth is that Arafat does not want peace at all. Alot of people are going to die now, because Clinton intervened in the Israeli political process, and the leftists implemented their version of the peace plan. They don't understand that, just as there are evil people, there are evil cultures that must be dealt with harshly. The current Palestinian culture is full of brain washed people who live for one goal- the destruction of Israel.
The bomber killed an American teacher last week. Did she deserve that? Show me where their wives and daughter have been raped?? BTW, they place their kids in the middle of war zones. Mistakes have occurred, but Israelis own up to their mistakes. Civilians will die in war, and the Palestinians are determined to wage war. One more thing, did you see the baby strollers lined up at the Sbarro restaurant where 15 people died? Those had babies in them, which the Palestinian bomber killed. People like you who side with the Palestinians based on unreal disinformation make my skin crawl. If Arafat get his homeland, guess what kind of government will rule. A RELIGIOUS DICTATORSHIP. Will you feel sorry for the Palestinians, or will cultural relativism cause you to shrug your shoulders and be happy for the continually imprisoned Palestinians? The best hope for the Palestinian people is to be integrated into the Democratic Israeli nation. If they would put down their guns and get to work, their lives would be greatly improved.
Israel isn't a perfect Democracy. What are you smoking? Israel calls itself a Jewish Nation. Why do you expect them to treat non Jews fairly? And every person in Israel is in the military at one point or another. They are trained and armed. They wouldn't be treated fairly anyway just as the Ethiopian Jews weren't. So that notion is pure drivel. The other Arab countries that you abhor so much have rulers that Britain left them with. They get full support of America to crush the democratic uprisings. In 1991 Algeria had an election a coalition won..France didn't like the democratically elected representatives so it gave Algerian military full support and didn't allow the democratically elected government to hold office. Barak didn't give into Palestinian demands. He established just as many settlements in the Palestinia land which was designated in the Peace Accords. I wouldn't expect America not to interfere about Israeli political instability after all it does give it billions of dollars each year. Upwards of 95 billion dollars since the country was recognized by US. Heck Israel has just started to get any signs of disapproval from America. It's not the 500 Palestinians that Israel killed that America cares for. David Satterfield criticized the takeover of the Orient House. Not the 500+ Palestinians that they killed over the past 10 months. Not the imprisonment of Palestinians in small areas with no way to earn a living. Not the constant deaths that Israel forced when they wouldn't allow ambulences to go beyond check points in less than an hour. I agree the Palestinian leadership is pure crap. And if Israel thought Arafat was so much to blame they wouldn't have called the PLO a couple of days ago after they found out that Arafat was visiting a site where some Israelis bombs were dropped but didn't explode. I am sorry for that teachers death but would you feel safe going to Israel now? Of course not. I don't need to use analogies cause its a sad situation however there are easily preventative measures to this as in don't go to a country that has millions of people enslaved virtually for three generations and expect nothing bad to happen. Statements like 'there are some cultures which need to be dealt harshly with' is a nazi statement. Thats what they believed about the Jews. Same ideology different victim. And please you make me puke as well. You with your CNN-limited/based ideology and knowledge as if you were bought out by the Israeli lobby like most of our senators are. The facts of what happened between 16 and 18 September 1982 are not in doubt - save for the guilty and the insane. On 16 September, the Israeli army surrounded the adjoining Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila and sent their Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia allies into them to hunt for "terrorists". There were none. Just civilians, whom the Phalangists murdered and raped in homes and backyards and streets, slaughtering up to 2,000 civilians, in some cases watched by Israelis from rooftops. Only on the 18th did Israel order its allies out of the camp. When I entered Sabra and Chatila early on the 18th - before the murderers had left - it was already a charnel house. The Lebanese president-elect, Bashir Gemayel, had just been murdered. The Phalangists were in vengeful mood. Yet Menachem Begin, then Israel's Prime Minister, was to claim he never imagined there would be a bloodbath. The Israeli Kahan commission report - which bleakly confirmed that Israeli troops saw the massacre taking place and did nothing - condemned Ariel Sharon, then Defence Minister, for indirect responsibility. http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=19745
mr_gootan, Very informative, thanks for the summary. What about Palestinians who did not leave on their own volition? A story I heard from a Palestinian friend was that his village was forcibly evacuated; that they were marched out by Israeli troops. His parents lost their business and ancestral home, yet they personally were not involved in the fighting. They obviously never received remuneration for their posessions.
I don't know what you mean by "perfect" democracy. Since true Democracies cannot survive, only forms of democratic governments exist (in a true democracy, the masses will vote to steal the money through socialist reforms, and the government collaspes). Israel is a democratic republic, and I don't smoke. So, any veteran is no longer classified as civilian, and are fair game in a war? That is a silly statement. I don't see how Algeria is relevant, and I also don't respect governments that are not democratically elected. http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/07/25/News/News.10101.html The United States should not interfere with democratic elections in other countries. Are you surprised that Netanyahu was accused of a crime, forced from office, and then vindicated? That is classic Carville. Bill Clinton's own negotiator from the last peace talks blames the Palestinians for the new round of violence. The Palestinians are on the offensive now, not the Israelis. I would love to see peace there, and so would Israel, but Arafat won't let that occur. The 500 deaths should be blamed on Arafat. This should be evidence to you that Israel is looking for a peaceful end to the violence. So, it is the teacher's fault that she died because she went to Israel? Nice. Look up the word "culture" in a dictionary, and see how silly that above paragraph reads. <b>Culture</b> is not the same as <b>people</b>. I would love to see the Israelis and Palestinians living <i>together</i> in peace, but the Palestinians have got to leave their culture of hate behind. Thank you for admitting that the Israelis did not rape Palestinians. I am sure there are isolated cases of rape that you could find (that always happens in war unfortunately), but your previous statement was just pure wrong.
One more thing. The Palestinians have a homeland. It is called Jordan. I do think, though, that Jerusalum should never be the capital of Israel, and the Palestinians should have equal access and some governing authority in that city.
I sympathise a great deal with the Palestinians. They're not allowed to vote, despite making up a significant % of the population. They're allocated substantially less water and electricity than Jewish Israelis. They're restricted in their movements and economic activities. I don't have a problem with Israel maintaing control of the region; I could really care less whether the Palestinians have their own "homeland." But I do think they deserve to be treated as equals, and if Israel refused to do this, then I do favor them being granted independent statehood. Terrorism is a tough issue. I really really, hate terrorists, as I think most people probably do. But when "peaceful resistance" is unsuccessfuland doesn't yield "press" anyway, what sort of political power does a repressed minority have? Terrorism seems one of the very few ways to gain political leverage. Is it right? No. Please do not interpret my statements as meaning that. But I do understand their rage and frustration. When all "legitimate" channels of help are eliminated, sometimes people become desperate.
A good start for the Palestinian people would be to get their money back from Arafat and the PLO. The Palestinian Authority teaches their children that the Jews want them dead, that the Jews are poisoning the water supply, that the quickest way to Heaven is to die killing Jews etc, etc... While this horrific disinformation campaign prevents any peace anytime soon, a London Newspaper uncovered 5 billion pounds sterling (around 9 billion USD?) in private accounts in the name of Arafat and other PLO leaders. I think 5 billion would go a long way in relieving the suffering of the Palestinian children, though Arafat's death might be even better. Arafat is a murderer and a thief, and does not deserve to lead. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/pafunds.htm http://www.imakenews.com/federation/e_article000011935.cfm
No I highly doubt Israel cares to have a peaceful talk with Palestinians. They do recognize that if Arafat dies the next person in line won't be such a puppet of the West. In reality, Palestinian officials and American sources – the latter wisely avoiding Israeli condemnation by talking anonymously – have pointed out that the figure of 96 per cent represented the percentage of the land over which Israel was prepared to negotiate – not 96 per cent of the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip. Left out of the equation was Arab east Jerusalem – illegally annexed by Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six Day War – the huge belt of Jewish settlements, including Male Adumim, around the city and a 10-mile wide military buffer zone around the Palestinian territories. Along with the obligation to lease back settlements – built illegally under international law on Arab land – to Israel for 25 years, the total Palestinian land from which Israel was prepared to withdraw came to only around 46 per cent – a far cry from the 96 per cent touted after Camp David. http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=84792
Rodney McCray: Who do you think does deserve to lead? Arafat seems, at best, ineffective. If those articles are correct, then he's a crook, as well. But I think the real problem is the lack of legitimate institutions for producing leaders in Palestinian society. The Israelis deal with Arafat because there is nobody else. This is one of the arguments that I vacillate greatly on... when I discuss it with people who are pro-Israel, I tend to disagree... but the opposite is true when I talk about it with people who are pro-Palestine. Can't agree with anybody because I think they're all wrong.
boy: of course not... Israelis are bloodthirsty, evil, bastards while the Palestinians are a peace-loving people wrongfully oppressed for years who just accidentally blow up buses of school children. yeah. Arafat's such a puppet that he's rejected West-supported peace deals. And that he was once intimately involved in anti-Western activities. If you get into "illegal" annexation of land... well, you're never going to have a peace resolution. Israel was invaded by Arab nations... that was illegal. Israel occupied land unofficially... that was illegal. It's a moot question at this point, and is quite unproductive. In the end, the "law" is just the system that hte victors impose. Don't view it in terms of absolutes. Not exactly the London Times, is your source?
Haven, the reality of this situation is that Israel will remain a country. Arguing over how Israel was born is useless. The Arabs attacked in the late 60's, and Israel was forced to annex a buffer zone to protect itself from future attacks. The Palestinians have demonstrated two things to me- 1. They are demanding the return of the buffer zone. 2. They still want Israel destroyed, regardless of what their propaganda machine says. Israel must hold their ground, and maintain peace through a strong military threat. The only way this situation will get resolved is if the Palestinians stop the fighting. In a generation, maybe talks of returning some land can be started then. Until then, Palestinian rights to Jerusalem should be honored, Jewish settlers should stay out of the disputed lands, and Palestinians living in Israel should be treated as full citizens. Also, Palestinians violence should be crushed with overwhelming force where ever it occurs. If these brainwashed Palestinians want a one way ticket to Heaven, let them have it.
I forgot that all media agencies, except The New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, London Times, CNN/BBC, are lies. And I beg to differ on the notion that the invasion of Arab nations into Israel was illegal. After all that land was promised by British to the Arabs. It was their land. Only around 600,000 Jews lived in that land even at the time of Israels call for independence.
rodney mccray: Whaaa... I'm not against Israeli statehood. I don't really care how Israel was born. I just argued that it was irrelevant.
