I guess most of you heard about and saw the latest Palestinian bombing of a pizzeria in Jerusalem with 18 dead and scores injured by a 23 year old suicide bomber. Can these people possibly hate each other any more? It parallels the German hatred of the Jews. The Jews never had a chance to hate the Germans because they were embroiled in the Holocaust at the time. Now, however, the modern day Jews and Palestinians absolutely hate each other calling for each other's heads. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad comes across as a bunch of cowards. They are targeting civilians whether it be restaurants or discos. Why don't they target the Israeli govt/military? After all, isn't their conflict mainly with them? I bet it's because they cannot get anywhere near any real targets so they just blow up civilians. Can anyone condone what the Palestinians are doing? At least Israel is targetting the Islamic Jihad for the most part although they seem to kill alot of Palestinians in the crossfire as well. I would hesitate to say Israel is targetting Palestinian civilians outright, however. What does the Islamic Jihad expect to accomplish....another ethnic cleansing like the German Nazis attempted to do? Terrorism is no solution. It just calls for revenge. They started it....you started it....who the f#*k cares? Someone needs to step up and stop it. If there is a cease fire and bullets are still flying, then someone started it and someone is clearly in the wrong. Unfortunately, each side blames the other every time. So, there can be no right or wrong from your vantage points. In the end, I don't think the Jihad will ever cooperate because they wreak of terrorism. Israel wreaks of revenge which never ends. The whole thing over there stinks. The Israelis call for revenge any time anything happens. The Islamic Jihad are just a bunch of terrorists who will never stop. Even when Sharon and Israel tried to exercise restraint under a cease fire agreement, it all fell apart anyway. Both sides share the blame. I hate the thought that Israel is seeking revenge using military equipment from the US. I wish we could bow out and not be on the Israeli side. Yes, we have alot at stake in foreign policy if we lose interests in Israel. The whole thing still stinks bigtime. If these people hate each other so much, then why not start a war. The only thing that may work is to put in a task force to ensure the peace. However, who the hell would want to make up the task force? They would just probably take on the brunt of the casualties in the middle. Isn't it Israel who doesn't want the task force? Why...so you can continue to exact revenge? At least Palestine wants a task force in place. All I gather from all that violence is that life doesn't mean a whole lot over there. The never ending battle over religion and holy sites and Palestinian independence. When will it ever end? What kind of people can claim to be religious yet condone the use of violence? What God condones violence? Maybe we need another Moses and another great flood to cleanse this planet so it can start over once again. This place is sick. Luckily, our government and people can just sit back and watch for the most part while making official statements like "that was too excessive" or "that was wrong" while trying in vain to broker peace. The only way those people are going to have peace is if we force them to have peace. And, that requires a peace-keeping task force probably made up of many Americans. And, they will just be in the line of fire and take on their own casualties. I don't care if Jerusalem is the holiest city on the planet. I would not want to be there because the two warring peoples over there make it evil and religion is not supposed to be about evil and violence in my opinion. Unfortunately, I guess holy wars go hand in hand with religion. I doubt God feels good about any of it, however. At least, my God doesn't. What kind of person can be called a martyr who blows up a restaurant of civilians? I would hate to have your God. In the end, it really doesn't matter what people like myself think because it's not going to change anything. This could go on until the end of time. How much violence and how many people have to die before two peoples can figure out how to live together? The answer is....infinite.
We are due for a great leader, and I do think, some day, that leader will bring the better parts of the world together. I don't think we are that far away. Just a hunch.
Honestly, sometimes it seems Isreal's whole purpose is to be a distabilizing factor in the region becuase of the wars Isreal nor its enemies will never be a real threat to the 'western' civs I don't even truly understand how Isreal came into being. I know it was after one of the World Wars but the reasoning behind it . .. from what I understood was a bit . . .well suspect. Could someone explain Why Isreal was created and why it was given as a Jewish state. I'm not anti Isreal or Anti Jewish But from what I understand the Jewish People claim that it is there holyland and the Palestinians claim that it was there holyland plus they held it until the great western powers 'created' Isreal for the Jewish people [after WWII?] So again my questions: Who were the western powers to have this authority? [might makes right?] Why did they do it? Rocket River trying to understand
The Ottoman Turkish Empire ruled the area that contained Israel for 400 years until December 11, 1917, when General Allenby entered Jerusalem as the conqueror. It was at the end of what was called "the Great War", or WW I, that the entire Middle East was carved up creating new nations that had never existed previously in history. The British had promised a nomadic herdsman named Abdullah, that if he would cooperate with the British officer, Sir Lawrence, later known as Lawrence of Arabia, in the fight against the Turks and Germans, he would be rewarded with his own country. Hence at the end of the war The Royal Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan was formed which we know as Jordan today. In addition the Gulf Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran and several others came into being, all carved out of what was the Ottoman Empire. Palestine itself fell under the rule of the British. The British were commissioned by the League of Nations (forerunner of the UN) to prepare part of Palestine as a future national home for the Jews. Why was England interested in a homeland for the Jewish people? There were two primary reasons, first, because of the Pre-millennial, Pre-tribulational teaching of God's men. Believers were being taught God had an end time program for Israel and He was going to keep His word. Secondly, due to the efforts of a brilliant Jewish chemist named Chaim Weizmann. There was an acute shortage of acetone, a chemical needed for the explosive used in artillery shells. Weizmann discovered a method for producing acetone in the laboratory by fermenting maize. This discovery proved vital to Britain's war effort and a grateful nation sought to show its gratitude. As a reward he was promised the assistance of the British in establishing Palestine as a permanent home for the Jews. The British signed off on November 2, 1917, pledging their support to what we now know as The Balfour Declaration. The British ruled in Palestine from 1917 until May 14, 1948, when after many debates, struggle, and the horror of the holocaust, Israel was declared a sovereign independent state. Indeed, empires and kingdoms have come and gone, foreign power after foreign power has had their day and are now no more, yet Israel remains. During the entire period of recorded history, that is more than 5,000 years, Palestinian Arabs never ruled Palestine.
It always has been war ... it will always be war. Once we suck up all their oil, we will not hear about this in the news.
A good thing to remember in all of this is that the Arabs and Jews lived in peace for over 1,000 years prior to 1948. For some more recent history, the BBC did an excellent documentary on the conflict and it was later followed by a book. The documentary and book are called "The 50 Years War." Co-written by an Egyptian-Arab and Israeli with many interviews with some of the main players - King Hussein had the most interesting insights. Definite read if you want to get up to speed. I travel the ME and North African region a lot and have a lot of Arab friends. When this subject comes-up and it always does. I remind them that they are seeking an opinion from someone that lives in a country that took the land from the Indians by murder and forced treaties. On top of that, I am from Texas where one of the most blatant land-grabs took place when we "reannexed" Texas from the Mexicans. My point being to them is that there are very few places in the world that are not claimed to be occupied and rightfully owned by other groups, tribes, countries... Land-grabs have historically been the way of the world. Also to put things in perspective, there are many injustices and murders in the world but Israel gets a lot of press coverage because Israel receives the most foreign aid from the US. But before one goes off and claims a terrible inbalance, Egypt receives the second most. So, we tend to focus where the money is. My solution (tongue-in-cheek) is to nuke Jurusalam (after fair warning). No one gets it. Isn't that what Soloman would have done.
What do you mean by "we "reannexed" Texas from the Mexicans"? Texas fought and won a war for independence from Mexico. We weren't annexed until nearly 10 years later. Personally, I'm sick to death of hearing about all the idiots in the ME. Constantly blowing each other up and fighting all the time. Just let them go to war so they can settle it once and for all.
The bigger land grad of the US regarding Mexico was the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Before this treaty was signed the US president and a general (I think he was a general) essentially started a war with Mexico that Mexico didn't want to get into (Mexico at the time was in shambles and very decentralizined politically and militarily) because the US predisent wanted much of Mexico's land at the time (what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of other adjacent states). After this treaty, similar to what happened after the Texas War, lots of Deep Southerners essentially moved to this area and either outright stole or swindled (putting their own judges and discriminatory laws in place) the land from most of the previous owners. These lands represented primarily ranchers and farm estates owned mainly of those of Spanish and/or Mexican heritage AND older resident Anglos who had supported and coexisted with the Mexicanos/Spanish peoples and to some degree [farming oriented] American Indians.
First of all I'm an Israeli so I dont claim that I'm objective. I'm 17.5 years old and I'm going to join the army on march 2002 and consider myself as a left wing man politacly speeking. This state of violence has taken over our lives over here, almost every night we go to sleep after hearing about a israeli shot dead and wake up hearing about an israeli shot dead, I read you wishing there would be a war and I can tell you that there are more and more demands for a war in the Israeli public, you have to understand If there will be a war the casualties on the palastinien side will be so big that all of the world will call us murderus and will compre it to an athnic clensing. A tesk-force can not help the situaiton here because we Israelies do not belive that the U.N. is objective to us you can take the Kidnapped soldiers case as an exemple and explenation to our feeling 3 IDF soldiers were kidnapped 1 km away from a U.N. outpost in the south of lebanon 6 month after the IDF positoned him self on the international border according to the U.N. the U.N soldiers videotaped the incident and some say even helped the Hizzbualla terrorists in the kidnapp. the U.N. did not tell Israel about the tape until a month ago after it was published by the madia and even after they told us that they have the tape they did not agree to give to us, after the Israeli demand to get the tape it "kindly" agreed to let Israeli represntetive see it only 1 time and after all the faces of the terrorist were erased we feel that we cant trust a body that does this sort of things to us. I think that a possible soulotion involves jorden, 70% of the jordenian poplation is palastinian the other 30% are bedoines that form all of the political an economical elite maybe if a palastinian state would be formed on the land of jorden and the palastinians would be moved there and israel will accept the jordanian leadership (as you may or may not know bedoine serv in the milatry here in israel and we always had a good relaitonship with the jordenian leadership) a palastinian state like this could solve a lot of the problems here but there are off course some problems with this plan: 1.until saddam hussin and the Iraqy army are killed israel can not allow the possiblaty of him moving his army to jorden an thratening our eastern border. 2. the palastinians int gaza and the west benk would not go to jorden off their own will.
I used the term "re-annexed" because when the troops were sent into, at the time Mexico, the goal was to "re-annex" Texas from Mexico. The irony was that Texas to that point was never part of the US -- never "annexed" in the first place. But by "re-annexing" Texas from the Mexicans, it justified the cause. So the troops went down to the Mexican army on the Rio Grande and picked a fight. The end. And Don King could have it on pay-per-view.
I believe Egypt receives the most foreign aid from the US, not Israel. Also, I believe there is a difference between fighting, killing, and warring to gain control of land and having what amounts to a religion being given their own country out of sympathy. The creation of Israel has seemed to solve one situation at the expense of creating a much bigger problem.
Yes, it's only been a predominantly Arabic Islamic country since the end of the 7th century. The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine. Ancient Jewish rule in this area only lasted roughly 414 years, over 2000 years ago. Here's what Ghandi had to say about the conflict. I think he describes the situation pretty well. Alot of illegal acts were performed to dispossess Arab farmers of their land ("absentee landowner"), thereby making it impossible for them to reclaim their land. "Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs…As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds."
Check: http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/trade_reports/neareast98/israel98.html and also Egypt98.html 1999 Numbers Israel 3 Billion (approx 1 B to economic and 2 B military) Egypt 2.1 B (0.8 Eco and 1.3 Mil) Egypt was typically only receiving about 1/3 of the total of Israel but they were given a number of military contracts under Clinton. They even assemble F-16s there. Actually, the Israelis were not given the country. They essentially kicked the British out with their tails between their legs (as did most countries under the Empire). And, it goes beyond a religion having a country. The Israelis were a tribe as were most groups of people in the region. Thus, they had as much right to the land as any other group. Don't forget, the Arabs did not exactly endear themselves to the world during WWII by (as a majority - since they were not countries yet) allying with the Germans. So, when it was all said and done, to the victor goes the spoils. The Jews were without question victimized in Europe and played the politics right with the Allys and seized the opportunity to force their way into a sovereign state. And thats just the way it is...... I always like to throw this hypothetical out there during these discussions: If Israel diappeared over night, who would control Palestine? Syria claims all of Palestine as part of greater Assyria (along with Lebabnon). Jordan claims everything west of the Jordan River all the way to the Med. Egypt claims the southern region as an extension of Sinai. And, oh yeah, the Palestinians claim it as rightfully theirs. More people would die in the ensuing conflict than during all the other wars for the region.
They most certainly were given the country. They sure didn't fight for it. Israel was propped up by the Allies and then funded/armed by the most powerful countries in the world. Who could seriously blame any neighboring arab country for being pissed about that? If Jews had fought for Israel and won it in battle then at least that could be respected. I have my own hypothetical. Let's say for example that half of Texas was given back to a Native American Indian tribe for the treatment they received in the past by the US government. Native Americans have as much right to American soil as anyone else don't they? Does that justify kicking millions of Texans out of their homes so that said Indian tribe can have a homeland again? No it sure doesn't.
Before someone brings up the past Arab-Israeli wars to point out they fought for their land, I'm really talking about fighting for the establishment of Israel. Israel's sovereignty was gained through UN legislation, not won through battle. Gotta watch out for you tricksters!
"They most certainly were given the country. They sure didn't fight for it. Israel was propped up by the Allies and then funded/armed by the most powerful countries in the world. Who could seriously blame any neighboring arab country for being pissed about that? If Jews had fought for Israel and won it in battle then at least that could be respected" what are you talking about? The british forces left Israel and only a day after our indepndence war started we were atacked by forces from lebanon,syria,egypt,jorden,iraq and saudi arabia, at the time when the IDF was berly orgenized, it's true that israel was formed after a U.N. decision, that decision said that the land of what is now known as israel should be devided to 2 lands an arab land and a jewish land, the city of jerusalem was to be an international city, the jews were so happy about the decision that they started danceing in the streets but the arabs decided to go to war there were only about 700000 jews in the land an they fought the orgenized army of 6 arab naiton, some of the jews that got to israel while the war was fought were sent straight to the front (my grandfather who survived and his brother that died in the battle of latroon for exemple) after being given a gun and some food, why have fought for our land since 1948 and ever since, every day we fight for our exsitince and I think that we should as much rescpect as any naiton that fight several tens of millions of arabs with a pupulaiton of 5 million.
If Israel was given the right to self-govern by the UN then how did Israel fight for independence? Fighting for independence means you're fighting for the right to self-govern. You can't exactly do that if the right has already been given to you. Israel has indeed fought and probably will fight for it's every day survival but when you consider that the US has funded, trained, and armed Israel, then it's clear to see what a huge advantage Israel has over any coalition of arab states. For all of the press that is given to arab terrorism, you don't hear too much of Mossad assasinations, kidnappings, and other operations. They're pretty damn ruthless in their own right. I don't support the idea of terrorism but Palestinians have every right to want to bring down Israel. They've been robbed and duped by the UN, Israel, and the US.
Uganda was supposed to be the first Jewish state. Thats what the UN originally planned to do. However the fathers of Zion determined Palestine should be the place and tried to bribe the Ottoman empire by paying off the debts to take over Palestine. Of course they were met with extreme anger and disgust for the Ottoman Empire considered the land of Palestine holy to their religion, Islam. Jumanji was wrong however in the statement that arabs allyed themselves with the Germans. If you look at the history of the break up of the Ottoman the Arabs (the oil producing gulf states) they got into power because of British and they supported the British. Now though ideally we all would love to say lets stop the violence but remember I find it hard to call people who drop bombs with F-16s and Appache Helicopters victims. They were the agressor. You cannot condone killing innocent kids however you can't condemn an oppressed people who have 6 million of their brothers/sisters as refugees living all accross the world. They started the agression when Sharon (who should be tried in international courts for killing hundreds of refugees in an UN refugee camp in 82) entered the Holy Mosque of the Muslims.
