I would be way more comfortable if holic just said look I'm a huge fan of the guy and I really think he could help the team. Despite that I know what his numbers show, and I get why you guys don't. But this is getting borderline crazy...
Holic you're the skip bayless of CF. I think you know a lot about the sport, but you're obsessive love/hate of certain players makes you seem way more dumb than you are
I'm a huge fan of the guy and I really think he could help the team. Despite that, I know what his numbers show and I get why you guys don't.
I've already said that over and over. Because it does take more than just "being a fan" to understand why he would help this team immensely. I'm a fan of winning. I have studied basketball from that standpoint. I'm a fan of guys that work to win, practice to win, and play to win. That's why I've been a huge fan of guys like Chuck Wagon and Battier. Remember when Chuck Wagon was here with Yao? We would obliterate teams when we had him in at PF beside Yao. But we kept running all these other boys out there next to Yao because Hayes couldn't shoot, and he was 6'5''. yada, yada. Hey, I understood why the casual fan wanted somebody else out there. Because Hayes was so unconventional. I don't care about unconventional. It's all about winning, baby. Hayes was phenomenal at all the things that just aren't in the box score. He didn't get credit for his passing because he was the guy passing the ball to the guy who got the assist. He didn't get credit for blocked shots because he would strip guys before they got the shot up. He didn't get credit for his rebounding either. But amazingly enough when he was in there we won the boards about 95% of the time because he would be boxing out two opponents, helping to shield off his teammates man so his teammate could pick up a board. He couldn't shoot so you'd think he'd hurt the offense and we'd be less efficient with him out there. But when the defense ignored him he'd pop out to the high post, feign a pass with his 7-foot defender falling asleep and he'd drive the ball to the rim and get a reverse layup down while the stupid defender wondered what happened. Hayes never hurt our offense. Look it up. We were more efficient offensively when he was in there than when he was on the bench. I still remember the game when I personally discovered Hayes and he cemented into my mind as a winner. It started with him and Lonny Baxter, another nothing player, taking us on a big run while in at the power spots. I had already studied Baxter and knew he was just another guy, that he was not a valued commodity and did not have anything special that would contribute significantly towards winning. But we went on a big run with Hayes and him and the rest of the third unit in there. So I started looking at Hayes under a microscope and after watching a bunch of video of him going back to Kentucky I saw it. He was phenomenal defensively despite being undersized and he did everything offensively that contributed to team wins without showing up in the box. This is why I always say.....you gotta watch the games. You gotta understand what gets a team the big W and what makes certain combinations of players lethal. I became obsessed with Hayes. Still love the guy. I didn't just think, I knew his value to winning. Still remember the Garnett game where he made Garnett look like an idiot. Everybody was going crazy after every play. Not me. That was Hayes just playing his normal game. Garnett was the stubborn fool that wouldn't respect Hayes and kept walking right into Hayes' defensive snake den until Hayes destroyed him. Garnett was simply too stubborn to accept it and kept gong back for more punishment while Hayes was the ego-less player who would have avoided the confrontation and made a team winning play if the roles were reversed. I know all these things about Rubio too. The man is a big time winner. I've seen him play too much. He's a big time winner. And yes, I'm obsessed with egoless players who are obsessed with winning and are winners. When Rubio finally gets on a team with other championship ready players he's going to shine and be a force to be reckoned with. I just hope that team isn't the Spurs, or Jazz, or some other divisional foe that comes back to kick our tails every season of the Harden era. Because Rubio is going to win in the NBA just like he has everywhere else. It's just a matter of him getting the right opportunity.
Because someone is obsessed, so much so that when the last thread flamed out, that poster was pathetic enough to create another worthless one about said overrated player that we aren't trying to trade for and would be a horrible fit next to a ball dominant SG like Harden.
Actually, Jonny Flynn's career stats are more comparable to Patrick Beverleys. Wonder where Jonny's playing basketball these days.
Rubio sucks.... he had so much hype and potential.. He's a backup PG in this league at this point. A PG that shoots like Shaq just doesnt deserve heavy minutes.
I think it should be noted the Rockets didn't obliterate teams any time Yao/Hayes were paired together... and not any meaningfully more than Yao/other PFs. And as importantly, Hayes was absolutely NOT a net positive in the playoffs, basically all three years he was with the team in the playoffs. And specifically with regard to rebounding, where he had a good game here or there, but on the whole struggled. That said... if you are comparing Rubio to Hayes, or Battier, then that sounds about right. He absolutely can be the right complimentary role player on a championship like team. As can many other players. Like Patrick Beverely, for example.
Bev can be a complimentary rule player on a championship team. But that team will have to have at least one player on it who is a better playmaker than Harden is. In regards to Hayes in the playoffs he was a net positive. Check his on-off numbers. Also check lineups. The Hayes/Yao combo dominated our best outperforming lineups.
Championship teams will also need to have at least 4 or 5 players who are better NBA basketball players than Rubio is.
Excuse me for posting in this thread, but because of the bumps today, I need to clarify the facts about Chuck Hayes, one of my fav players ever. Sorry, JayZ750 and basketballholic, saying Chuck Hayes struggled rebounding or implying he had low numbers because he boxed out are both wrong. The later describes him like how ppl describe DMo. Hayes' numbers show that he was a very good rebounder, and great for his size (what? 6'4 or 6'5 at most). Being a season-ticket holder, it was obvious in his first few games he was great rebounder...my ticket buddy and I noticed that immediately. Here's Chuck Hayes' TRBs per/100 possession stats: Covering his 6yr span as a Rocket he was 14th in the entire league at 14.9 (Players with >400 games played) Just behind Zach Randolph and Al Jefferson, and just ahead of Ilguaskas and Perkins (far ahead of Pau Gasol and Bosh) Over same span, he was 8th in the league in offensive rebounds per 100. Under JVG, he was 5th in the league at 18.2 his first year (> 40 games played) He was 10th in the league at 16.1 his 2nd year, 5th in Offensive Boards (fully qualified for league rankings) His numbers take a slight drop with Adelman tied directly to his lower offensive rebound numbers due to change in role to high post. DReb remained the same. Covering his 6yr span as a Rocket he's #1 on the team (>300 games played) For his 6yrs as a Rocket, Yao was #1 at 15.5 and Hayes was #2 at 14.9 (>200 games played) basketballholic...don't know how you watch the games like me and classify Hayes as someone who was great at boxing out, as if he didn't have good rebounding numbers. You could see him get more boards than others, and the numbers show it. Hayes doesn't deserve to be reduced to a description of "great at boxing out" like DMo -> Hayes was a 14.9 rb/100poss and DMo is a 10.3.
I'm with you. Many would call him mediocre. My point was when he was on court we won the boards almost always. Even his rebounding numbers you are highlighting don't describe all he was doing out there. Hayes was the ultimate team guy. He was the guy that made everybody else better.
