I Posted this in another thread but felt I should Create another one...sorry for jamming new threads..!! In many threads I have heard "lets just bomb them" and "kill these people" etc. Instead of Just "Bombing Countries" and "Taking out People" Why not look for the roots behind a problem. Its like people moaning about child pregnancy rates, drug usage and violence and not realizing its a breakdown in family structures. We as the most advanced, sophisticated country in the world should eliminate a problem at its roots, not simply strike at branches. There is no knowledge about the responsibility of this horrendous attack, but if it is a Palestinian Group, then we must look at how the US political agenda is making a group of people desperate, angry and insane enough to take their own lives and lives of innocent civilians in order to display their frustrations. I would imagine if your family was being slaughtered and you lived in a state of Apartheid, you might think differently. That being said, we should hunt down swiftly and lethaly the groups responsible for this and terminate with no compassion. We should make an example to scare the hell out of anyone who would ever concieve doing something like this. The sad part is many times the heads are too selfish to do the bombings themselves, they simply send out weak-minded individuals to do their bidding. But until we have true answers, I would like to reserve judgement. I love this Country and feel it is the greatest country in the world by far, but the actions of our country are alienating us from the world and we must analyze our actions in order to attack the root of this attack. We cannot live in a state of martial law, so lets see what we are doing to cause such problems. And if it is the work of Groups such as Osama Bin Laden, or Afghanistani groups, let everyone here remember that Bin Laden and many in Afganistan were trained and used by the US Military to do actions just as we see today against Russian forces. God Help us All.....
I can't see ANYTHING that the government is doing that could force people to do this. NOTHING! If they're so poverty stricken they wouldn't have the ability to do what they're doing now. I think this is just some sick political games these people are playing. If they have the ability to do this they should have the ability to take care of themselves.
They killed innocent civilians to get our governments attention. They have it but what will it get them? We should have been working on relations a long time ago, but that's not an option for this group anymore. Clean them out completely then work on relations with other groups that are not part of this one.
Khan, if you say that US policy has caused this tragedy, you are legitimizing these attacks. I understand from other parts of your post that you don't really want to do that.
Please...I am far from Legitimizing anything, If I am than that is my own mistake. But I do feel you cannot kill one person, a group of people and eliminate a problem. The fact is the US is seen as an oppressive nation to many in Palestine and the Middle East because of their military, financial and political alliance to a country with the population the size of Houston that is oppressing a large group of people. You cannot give money, military weapons and support that is used to oppress a group of people and then state "Why is this happening?" I think it is absolutely wrong, but I would like to solve the problem not just different products of the problem.
<B>The fact is the US is seen as an oppressive nation to many in Palestine and the Middle East because of their military, financial and political alliance to a country with the population the size of Houston that is oppressing a large group of people. </B> If certain factions of said oppressed people would stop bombing the oppressors, they might be more than happy to stop oppressing. What happened to today here in the US is *horrendous*. It is also what Israel deals with every damn day. Random explosions, no warning, no reason, no defense. I don't think you can blame Israel for trying to defend themselves however possible.
Shanna, I don't think you can say that Israel, destroying Palestinian villages, killing people on a daily basis and throwing people out of their homes to make new settlements is considered simply "Defending themselves" Its ironic how the world was in an uproar over South Africa's Apartheid yet Israel is ignored. The fact is that it is a separated state based simply on race. If you are Palestinian you must carry your papers or you will be thrown in jail. You cannot get jobs in areas not allowed and you have a curfew time that you can not be out past!!?!? Now, do you think people will take that laying down??? I wouldn't. For people to go insane (obviously these attacks would only be able to be committed by someone completely insane) they must be devoid of all feeling and sense. What Caused that?? Could it be because their families were slaughtered, thrown out of their homes, their land taken away and now their family is starving or in camps? That could drive people to do things I could never imagine....
We also have given money, military aid and support to a large contingent of the Arab countries in the Middle East. It doesn't seem like that support is doing us too much good. Maybe the Palestinean factions should be terrorising the Saudis with their billions in oil money. And what are we supposed to do as citizens of the US? Tell Israelis they have to get out of Israel? They wouldn't pack up just because we said so. Should we NOT give them support and let them be torn apart from this very same terrorism? I KNOW THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. The Fact is that there isn't a damn thing we can do to change policy like this, and there is NO WAY we would support such a change now. And if we switched alliegance to the Palestineans, don't you think they would turn around and oppress the Israelis? And then we'd be in the same cluster**** just having switches bad guys. A line has to be drawn that you do not cross no matter what your beef. Killing mass amounts of civilians to strike a symbolic blow is one of these lines. Don't defend it. Don't ask for understanding. Its not there, and it isn't going to be there. There are plenty of other ways to try and change policy.
You're right. We should attack Isreal for this. *Sorry, I'm a little emotional and sarcasim is just coming out now.* There is NO excuse for this but there is an excuse for the response. Whatever the cause, what do the people responsible hope to achieve by doing this?
What we are supposed to do is exactly nothing. Stop giving aid to Isreal. Don't give aid to Palestine. Don't do a damn thing in the middle east. Things are so messed up over there that any damn thing we try to do to meddle is only going to make things worse. I'm sorry if terrorism wipes Isreal out of existense as a consequence but it's similar to building a house in a flood plain. Are you supposed to be surprised when a flood takes out your house? Isreal is an artifical state (and yeah, all states or more or less artifical but Isreal more so in my opinion) that wasn't created til 1950something if I recall correctly. I think it was a mistake to set it up in the first place but the way to handle it now is just to cut our ties. It sounds cruel but I worry about American safety more than I worry about Isreali safety. If that makes me a monster, so be it, I am unapologetic.
I completely agree with Dylan Now Why Do we have to Take Sides there? I'm sick of wasting our hard earned tax dollars focusing on external problems. We can't ignore the world arena, but we must make US Policy and success the most important issue. And looking at today's events, obviously something is very wrong. I work in the Financial Markets and I realize the ramifications of these bombings. I am in disbelief and shed a tear and a prayer for every poor, innocent soul that perished in these disasters. The sad part is many terrorists feel they will go to paradise if they are martyr's because they are promised it by clerics. If that was the case would you want to go to heaven and be close to a God that would believe that rubbish. I think not....
Both the Israelis and the Palestineans have claim to the same ground. Tough for sure, but there are atrocities on both side I can assure you. The point is that you are trying to justify this action, and there isn't any. The US is and has been a convienent scapegoat for every mother****ing radical on this planet since WWII, whether it be Serbs in the Balkans, Ethiopians in Africa, Palestineans in Israel, environmentalist in the Northwest...whatever. Its time people worked their problems and stopped blaming us. The only thing the average US citizen wants for the people on the rest of the planet is to be free like us to pursue life liberty and the pusuit of happiness. The average US citizen gets thrown out of airplanes after being shot in the head, blown up in discos, thrown overboard from cruise ships, and crashed into by hijacked airplanes. How does that make any sense? The other peoples of the world are ******* lucky we are so benevolent in the face of their outright aggression. As the old saying goes "Jesus said to turn the other cheek, but he didn't say what to do after that." I remember one time during the early 80s when US citizens were being held hostage left and right. The Hamas kidnapped a KGB agent in Beruit. Two days later three local Hamas leaders were found dead with their dicks cut off and shoved down their throats. The next day the KGB agent was released. And there is a moral to the story in there if you look for it.
Hayes, I think you are incorrect. Khan's not trying to justify it at all. He's just trying to give a reason for it. There is a big big difference there. Whoever the hell did this obviously has NO justification, but there were presumably REASONS for it and I want to know what those reasons are, if nothing else so I know what to watch for in the future...
Dont forget the Leader of Afgahnistan who was friendly to the US cause was killed by a suicide bomber yesterday .
Well if you say X had a rational reason then you are saying a rational person made decision X. I don't think that is correct. Todays actions didn't have rational reasons behind them. It is not rational to bomb US civilians because Israel exists. If it is irrational then you can't use it as a basis for your policy. That's like saying we should revert from using technology because the Unibomber obviously bombed for the REASON that technology is bad (so he thinks). That's like saying Hitler had a REASON to kill the Jews (he wanted their property and a scape goat). That's like saying Pol Pot had a REASON to kill most of the populous of Cambodia. (Well the teachers and doctors WERE educated in the western style) That's like saying that Japan had a REASON to bomb Pearl Harbor. Well of course they did. We were a threat to their expansion plans in the Pacific. Simply false logic. You justify the action when you try to make it seem rational.
So your saying that because of that reason, today is justified? That reason is a sorry one for this attack. If the Palestineans did this and is their last hurrah, I don't think Isreal will have to worry about them anymore. It did nothing but solidify our alliance and get the most powerful millitary nation in the world to go to war with them. I can't see Congress asking for anything less. I personally still think that this is Bin Laden.
He's simply saying that these people had their reasons...he's not saying that they were rational reasons.
BTW: I think Khan is going about this is the right way. We should always consider what implications our policies have in the world, but I think there are no black and white situations in geopolitical concerns. Sometimes you deal with what you think is the lesser of two evils. Israelis got a ton of support because they were a counterbalance to Arabs who were more Soviet leaning. And they continue to get support because they are a counterbalance to the Radical Fundamentalist agenda of shutting the West out of the Middle East. And the US has certainly been trying HARD to bring peace to the region as best we can. Remember, not that long ago the idea of Israel giving land up to Yasser Arafat was INSANE. But some people don't realize that this is not going to sort itself out overnight because you bomb the US. We don't have absolute power to change the face of Middle Eastern politics. There are too many factions straining to go in different directions. And I'll remind you that there is plenty of oppression in the Middle East without the US, just look at Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan.
But that is tricky isn't it. If you say they are irrational, then you can't adjust your policy to compensate for that. It would make foreign policy nonsensical. And would make it fluxuate depending on which nutcase group blew up the most ****, which not desirable. The idea is that you deal with the MOST STABLE group in any given area. In the Middle East its the Israelis.
