Simple as this to me... name the elite point guards since Isiah Thomas... Stockton, Payton, Nash, Iverson, Kidd, Williams, Paul, Rose, etc... how many have titles during their prime?
a year ago, i could've asked 'How many elite point forwards since Pippen's prime have won a ring in their prime?' and made a similar case. Building around LeBron is a bad idea. I can't blame Jason Kidd for losing to Shaq/Kobe. Replace Kidd with Wade in his prime, do you think the outcome is different? Nash nearly got to the finals once with 'big 3' of Nash, Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw. And if Phoenix didn't have a cheap owner who let Joe Johnson go and sold good picks, or they don't lose some chances to Amar'e injuries, Nash probably has a ring now, possibly a few. And Payton/Stockton... well, they met this Jordan person. But they did get past Hakeem a couple times, and he was without a doubt a championship level player, right? CP3 had two legit teams in his career. Last year, his first year with Blake Griffin. And back when he was a baby and he had David West / Tyson Chandler for 1 healthy year. And I would say that prime Pau Gasol / prime Odom or even current Gasol/Bynum blows both of these supporting casts out of the water. In the end, the best team wins. Not the best point guard or the best SG: Spoiler
Point forward? You're kidding me right? Lol. There haven't been any elite point forwards since Pippen. Not the same case with point guards. - they're have been dozens. Lebron is a dynamic perimeter player. Dynamic perimeter players win titles.
I'll still take Rose and CP3 over Westbrook. As far as the Harden to Westbrook comparison goes, there really isn't one. They both play different positions.
I've been a Westbrook hater for a long time, but his play last year shut me up. He looked like Derrick Rose a lot of the time. I think he was OKC's second best player and when Harden gets to that level we're in for a treat.
Westbrook is a weird guy, don't care much for his antics and look at me, I just dunked like he's wanting that hug from his mother he's been waiting for his whole life. Harden is a team player, WB is selfish so even if WB is better, I'll take Harden every single time.
Depends for this team us, the rockets, right now Harden bc quality two guards that play within any system, and defend the opponents best player, Harden....on most teams, Harden....but they're both good, and both prob. Underrated bc of Durant, no matter how much they've praised, or when people say they are a problem....Westbrook "plays out of control" "he shoots too much" -Harden"wants to be more involved, wants more shots.""he sulked after a win." Blah Blah....I like Harden bc like I said good/great 2 way shooting gaurds are hard to find. Steve Blake could run a "Good Team"-you need 2 way players, bc defense wins
43 points, and the Thunder lost that game. Not blaming Westbrook for the loss. Just want to point out the facts for context.
Ball dominant point guards... This isn't 1988, Guys like Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas don't get it done anymore. PG is the closest thing to NFL RB there is right now. Just look at Morey plucking "stud" point guards like Lowry, Brooks, Dragic, and Lin (the first time) out of the garbage.
but what's the reason behind it? if anything, point guard life is easier these days. is your argument here that teams with ball dominant point guards just can't win, period? there have been several ball dominant point guards who did win, they just weren't elite, so you ignore them. or does this only apply to guys who are ball dominant AND great? we've had Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, LeBron since 1990. If you don't consider titles at all, you'd probably still say those were the best players individually. Other than Hakeem (who did lose to elite point guards a few times in that period), these guys also had insanely talented stars next to them. It's not really a surprise that they have 19/22 titles. and i mean, look at your main statement. "name elite point guards who won a title since [the last elite point guard who won a title (Isiah)]". Sounds like an awfully biased sample for analysis.
For fantasy purposes I'd go with Westbrook. From a real world basketball perspective that's condusive to winning and limiting those WTF moments I'd go with Harden.
Why would a ball dominant SG (Kobe/Wade) or SF (LeBron) be excluded from your analysis? None of those players won a title on teams that weren't arguably the most talented in basketball. That seems to be the key to win a title in this league, being on one of the most talented teams overall. Which of the PG's post Isiah can make that claim? I count zero. Nash wasn't losing because he was a ball dominant PG. He was losing because he was going to war with Amare and Barbosa and others were going to war with Parker/Manu/Bowen or Gasol/Odom/Bynum. As great as Kobe is, even he never won a title without arguably the best supporting cast in basketball. Same goes for LeBron.
Westbrook and it's not even close. Expect big time season from him, I would not be surprised if he had better stats all around than Rose did in his MVP season(something like 25-9-5-2). Watched some game in preseason he was making some Rondo-like passes and looked like he found balance between disturbing and being aggressive. Otherwise OKC probably would not traded Harden. Biggest difference is that Harden is stoppable, if you switch on pick&rolls and make him shoot mid rang shots, he will struggle like he did vs. Heat and Lakers in last postseason. Harden also got pretty bad right hand. Westbrook on the other hand got lethal mid range jumper(2nd most makes behind Kobe last year) combined with his speed, quickness and atleticism he is unstoppable.
Westbrook is making Thunder potencial dynasty. Without him Thunder would just like Dirk's Mavericks. One great scorer, solid supporting cast. Good team who would maybe win once, when Durant would go in God mode like Dirk did.
That's true, but when you start talking about 25+ years of champions, with very few exceptions to the rule, then you have to look a little deeper. Why have the most dominant team then always been ones where PG wasn't one of those dominant positions. I'd argue because PG is a somewhat easier position to fill, in the sense that DM can go from Alston to Brooks to Lowry to Dragic to Lin, all of whom we wish were better, all of which (Lin TBD) were slight improvements (imo), but all of whom are very serviceable and could certainly be starting PGs on championship teams, and DM did so with very little effort. Or to put another way, here's a ranking of top SG's - bleacher report, but still.. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...the-top-ten-shooting-guards-in-the-game-today Kevin Martin is a top 10 SG. yes, I understand he can be an efficient scorer, but the difference between him and Kobe/Wade is enormous. They had to sneak Iguodala on there - and he's more of a 3 - and at #4, no less. Meanwhile, the difference between CP3, Westbrook, Rose, Williams, Rondo, Irving, Nash (though old, but still with his play last year), Parker, etc. isn't as huge. If you include a second group of Lowry, Wall, Lawson, Kidd, Rubio, Dragic, Lillard, you have a ton of really good to great points. All of which ignores the Rockets situation anyway. I'd rather have Lin/Harden than Westbrook/Martin 1,000 times out of 1,000. The big question mark here is Lin. Let's assume for a second that the Rockets resigned Dragic instead of Lin. Or let Dragic go but kept Lowry. If you're a Thunder fan, would you rather have: Lowry or Dragic, Harden, Durant, Ibaka or what they now have Westbrook, Martin, Durant, Ibaka I don't know how you don't take the former. If the goal is for Lin to provide the equivalent of Lowry/Dragic (and for that incredible stretch with the Knicks, in 25 starts he was better than both), it's the same argument. Apparently Presti thought otherwise. Well, in the sense that they chose Westbrook over Harden. Who knows what the return would be for Westbrook. One would assume equivalent to the return for Harden though. And it is fair to note that they got back more than just Kevin Martin. Finally, there is the advanced statistics I mentioned, which Simmons guest went over on the podcast yesterday, noting that from an advanced statistics perspective (not PER, mind you) Harden is the more efficient and better offensive player for now. Westbrook is still a freaking great player though. So it's a lot of debate about two players who are both VERY VERY good and very young. I'd just rather have Harden generally, and especially with the Rockets. Maybe it's just me trying to like Harden better. I've been high on him since his college days. I viewed him as a left handed Brandon Roy, and I always like lefties for some reason - they just seem crafty and fun to watch.
Since 1980 teams with a dominant PG have won 7 NBA titles. Each one also coincides with those PG's being on arguably the best team in basketball. It's only been 4 instances since 80 where someone won a title and they weren't on arguably one of the most talented teams in basketball. You're focusing on the wrong rubric. I'd rather have Westbrook by the way.
