Warning (Provocative): What makes Francis Unreproachable

Crispie Cutter:

You have far too much time on your hands.

 

Stevie is unreproachable because he's probably the only PG in the league that's on the business end of alley oops more often than not...

Steve has made some pretty bonehead mistakes, but he always seems to come back strong

Of course, he's never really been in a "must win" situation, so I think we'll learn a lot about him this year

 

I gotta second that

 

Not to mention an unhealthy attentiveness to the handsomeness of our players.

Let's not forget that Mobley has more experience as a player in both college and the pros and continues to shoot a below average percentage.

Francis isn't unreproachable, however. He's often been criticized for his antics and drawing technicals.

But he's been shooting well, rebounding well and doing everything he needs to do to win. Now let's just hope he doesn't...

Well, you get the point.

 

Crisp, it sounds like our times at Rice overlapped a bit. Do you remember the Karl Malone-Dave Ramer incident? I was gone by then and only have snippets of info. I would love to have a first-hand account, article from the Thresher, etc., for my "Why I Hate Karl Malone" web site.

P.S. Don't consider Francis unreproachable at all, but remember he's just a kid, unlike that savvy veteran Cuttino Mobley, who was on a playoff team and was the first option on offense, beating out guys like Olajuwon, Barkley, and ... uh... what was the name of that guy who dribbled the ball off his foot, but blamed the loss on Barkley?

 

I see another reason...and my dual status as Rockets and Raptors fan gives a little insight into this...

Stevie, like any young franchise player approaching his free agency period (I know, it's two years, but the deal should get done next year...) is being, and is going to be coddled...By the franchise, by the fans, by the local media (to an extent)...I watched the Raptors go through it with Vince Carter, as I'm sure GS did with AJ, Boston with PP, etc...And we, to a degree, pick up on it...Ask yourselves, honestly, when the Rockets make a move, isn't one of your first reactions " How will Stevie take this? Will he like it?" When the Rocks trade a first rounder to grab Morris, aren't you partly happy because it seems to be doing what Stevie wants?

Well, if we are doing this, to any degree, doesn't it follow that we will, consciously or not, afford him a certain leniency when it comes to his on-court errors? Would it be natural for us to want to cater to him (within reason) in one way and yet remain completely unaffected by that desire in another? I agree that his on court performance is what makes us want to keep him, but now that he's established his potential, aren't we guilty of coddling him a bit too? It's endemic to the NBA to look at your team's superstar with rose-coloured glasses, and we see it in the way Phoenix fans turned a blind eye to Kidd's erratic shot, or Sixers fans would forgive AI's occasionaly costly over-dribbling, or, yes, the way Raptors fans would ignore VC's periodic defensive lapses...

So, why would we be any different? I love Francis, and to be honest I don't see enough of him to really know about these "mistakes" we're discussing, but I have seen that his handle can be a little erratic for a point, and the cause is often trying to be too complicated. I think he'll improve, indeed I think he already has, but it is true that Mobley's willingness to let fly too many prayers is discussed a whole lot more than Stevie's tendancy to occasionally make it clear to all that he can school his man one-on-one rather than just making a move and beating him to the cup...

 

Francis is unreproachable because there are many of us on this BBS who don't get to watch many games. We read recaps of games and opinions by other posters on the BBS who have seen the games. The overall sentiment on the BBS is, generally, that Franicis is the Franchise, and Cat is Jack (somtimes). Because the fans who can't see and judge for themselves are instead forced to read the rantings of people calling for Cat's head, the general opinions multiply like rabbits in heat. I realize that this is not the original cause of the unreproachableness (?), but it does create a snowball effect.

Edit: By the way, great topic, HP. Good to see some original ideas for discussion thrown out there.

 

Hey pops, we won't have too much time on our hands if we had info to talk about.
Haha, I know about the Golden State thing, but is there more... please share!!

 

I honestly think that Steve is so far below his potential talent it is scarry. He has a ways to go to reach his full peak and personally having watched tons of B-Ball in my lifetime, he will be playing a long long time ..... we just keep comparing him to guys and forget that he can stand head to head with some of them in SOME parts of their game even now in his young career.

What happens when comparing him to others ......

Iverson for instance ..... we overlooked the fact that Francis is far past the " ... maturing ... court command .... team instrument ... to be used by the coach" stage. Iverson took an entire college career and pro career to capture (just last year) that truth. Steve has embraced that aspect of the game early and is way ahead of Iverson at that level.

Payton for instance ..... we overlook the fact that Francis allows himself to make mistakes and does not blame others or harm others to compensate. Francis does not get his game in front of the team very often. When Payton does this (he looks more and more frustrated every year), he ball hogs and plays "makeup" and "catchup" while the team game suffers. I guess we may be talking coachable or team focused here attributes here again. I fully agree that when Payton is given the opportunity to take over the game, gets angry, etc... he can sometimes explode. Lately however, despite his talents, GP does as much harm as good. Francis does not do that.

Stephon Marbury for instance ... we overlook the fact that Francis plays a much better ball controlled offense as point guard than Marbury ever thought of doing. He has good eyes and looks down court a lot. Marbury tends to look down on the ball and make his game the game to play. Steve doesn't b**** about touches and he is complimentry to his team.

In conclusion: You never hear of Francis's name come up in trade rumors (or actual trades as in Marbury's case), but all three of these guys have rumors around them perenially. I know the argument will be that they have been playing longer and have developed bad as well as good habits .... but that makes my point ... too. So what they have bad habits. Francis is developing good habits. Let's compare.

No one ever discusses Marbury's seeming self destructive attitude, ball hogging or "loss of respect" in the league. This is the guy that MJ crowned "one of the best point guards in the league". What's he done?

Everyone keeps talking about Iverson's new found respect for the "team concept". Hell, Stevie has it all ready amd has had it for a couple of years.

Everyone talks about Payton's command of the game ... taking over .... well .... humph ... he still has that I guess ... ah ... but don't discount the effect that Francis has on a game either. I even find Steve more consistent in this than Gary Payton and expect to see a marked improvement every year for several years yet.

Francis can be criticized definitely, but stop this hometown attitude that the "greener grasses shine greener over there" attitude. I would take Francis over all three of these "superstars" mentioned above. Anyday. Anytime.

 

I agree completely with you pops. He is not called the Franchise for nothing.

 

That's exactly as I heard it. I'll try searching the BBS for Isabel's post or see if I can drop her a note.

Thanks!

P.S. I saw Alonzo Mourning at the beach with Li'l Kim and she was trying to talk him into coming to Houston, since "East coast rap suckz an' the Heat goin' noplace without Timmy."

P.P.S. Sorry, wrong thread.

 

Stevie is unreproachable because he hasn't lost a big game yet. He is still coming into his potential, a potential which is very high. But at the same time it will have to be determined if he can pick up his game to the next level (ie the playoffs).
I can almost promise you that if we don't make the playoffs this year that there will be much more negativity towards him. His first year was disasterous with the injuries to Dream & CB4. Last year we all knew was a rebuilding year.
This upcoming year is when he has to become the "Franchise". Up until this point he has shown us lots of flash, but without much to show for it (no playoffs). Granted he really hasn't had the talent but this year with the addition of Rice and Griff he will have to step up.
Like I said before Stevie has a higher upside than most NBA players and this will have to be the year that he picks up this team and his teammates and truly leads them.

 

Why is Stevie unreproachable?

Because he encouraged the Rockets to pick Tmo. That's my kind of loyalty.

 

I KNEW you were going to say that..... like Johnny Cochrane bringing up the "Go-To Guy" card.

If we want to take the argument (well ... discusion ... ) to the next step we have to establish the ground rules.

If we are discussing "reproach-ability" of a ............... (insert player) let's confine it to comparisons of single players.

We can discuss forever ( well ... argue ) the merits of all the contributing factors of success, but .....

1. The unstoppable combos of Payton and Kemp, or Marbury and Kevin Garnett, Iverson and the entire team, etc .... so lets even the field and say they all had equal opportunities to show their worth. All things then being equal .... supporters and all .... I will stand by my assessment of Francis and his worth versus the three musketeers (Payton,Marbury and Iverson) mentioned.

2. Francis's "bad habits" are only a measure of how far he has yet to grow. (That ought to get quoted in a soon to be posted Crispee answer). The fact is Francis is improving yearly in spite of these "bad habits" and in the short brief time he has been playing. Wheresas, the "bad habits" of the three mentioned are evolutionary culminations of their inability to play a team game consistently, and yet they get all the press in spite of these growing shortcomings. The only one of the three that seems to be struggling to control his own "bad habits" seems to be Iverson ... but **** he gets all the press anyway.

3. And, that's basically what we are talking about. Reproach or not to reproach .... it is clearly defined by how the media sees their game ( and the fan perception of individual players ). I can almost live with Francis slowly and methodically creeping up on the game of these heralded "beyond reproach" superstars ... to the point where I fully expect some day to be reading in some established sports journal that the "New Arrival of New The Phenom" in describing Francis.

Meanwhile, Iverson will never play in another Finals, Marbury will be traded six more times, and Payton will be traded to a more "congenial and competitive" atmosphere (read that as whoever will pay Seattle top dollar for a fading star .... (Toronto?) .... to wait out his angry few years left in the spotlight.

4. The success via "whole team to grow" reference. Do you really feel that Francis's success should be discounted because it was a natural progression because the team was doing pretty good ... so Stevie was doing pretty good? In contrast, do you honestly think that any superstar merely needs "pickup-also rans" to succeed? I know you don't think that ... that is why I can't understand the reference ..... At worse, the implication by your use of the phrase above, infers that special talents, superstars, etc ... like Steve Francis ... that attribute their success to adopting a team concept, should draw much less accolades, and be given a much diminshed sense of importance by observers .... simply because they have played the game using a successful and proven formula .........

Every exceptional player makes everyone around him a better player. Every successful team has a roster of players that have learned to play as a team.


That is .... well, it is .... it's, ah..... outrageous. (I'm flustered.)

5. Frankly Stockton has one game and one game only. Stockton is to hold the ball and shoot with a fair to middling personal career average, or to pass to Malone who has an extremely high FG percentage. Now that is a great success story. It has been done for so many years with so much consistentcy that maybe some have forgotten that it still is a one act dog and pony act. He plays this single dimension game pretty damn well and is applauded beyond reasonable bounds .... sort of like your argument in reverse.

6.Kidd's game has grown very well over the last several years. But as he was growing he did not have the same depth of game that I see in Francis. I know, I know that is probably your point ... that you do not see that broad stroke depth that I and others proclaim .... But as illustration I thought Kidd was going to have a so-so career too. He still does not possess the "Take Over the Game" attitude that everyone keeps talking about IMHO. Give Francis as many years as Kidd, (and that's not many more) and we can compare both these guys ... or all of t6hem for that matter.

Simply put .... I believe Francis will be out scoring, out rebounding, out assisting, out dunking, out everything ..... all of the above mentioned guys ....

 

OP-

I totally agree and totally disagree at the same time...

While your assesments of the individual players are , in my opinion, bang on, your statement that these things aren't discussed is, I believe, way off...

With regards to Marbury, I have heard endless criticism of his ball hogging, me first attitude...Have you heard the nickname "Starbury"? I've almost univerally heard it in a derogotory manner...Remember at the beginning of last year, when SM was putting up 30 shots a night, that was all I heard about him, his shots..My God, he was almost taking as many shots a game as Jordan did...

The same goes for Payton and Iverson...AI may be the most oft-criticised superstar in the NBA, and Payton's stock has gone way down, at least in part to the perception that he's becoming more and more ego-centric...

On the other hand, all the positive comments about Stevie are, in my opinion, fairly acknowledged by Rockets fans here and elsewhere...Virtually all of his considerable attributes you have pointed out are brought up whenever we are asked to compare him to Starbury, or VC, etc...

My point is that we're biased...We can't help but be...I know I am...While among my peers I can argue relative virtues, etc..when I'm out on the mean streets of overall NBA fans I'm ready to rumble in defense of Stevie Wonder, et al.

I honestly would take over any other player from his draft class, and I would take him over any player at his position in the league, given age and upside...But just like Christians and Muslims honestly each believe in different things, if you and I were , say, Clippers fans, I think we'd justifiably think the same about Lamar Odom...The difference is that we'd be wrong...

P.S.... That was my first official smiley face....

 

Steve's unreproachable, because he's a #1 pick & Cat's not.

Steve's unreproachable, because the Rockets haven't had a real good PG since Lucas.

Steve's unreproachable, because he doesn't paint as big a target on his back as Cat does when he fails to deliver. In other words, Steve would rather let Cat take the final game winning (or losing) shot....

Hey, wait a minute. That would make Steve a slacker. Let's trade his reproachable butt to Golden State.

 

4.Stevie is unreproachable because all Rockets are. You really do not think anyone's mistake is worthy of
criticism.
You are The Cat!



Actually, one of my main points has been that Stevie should be subject to more criticism around here. Whenever we lose, most of the posters around here are eager to immediately point the finger at Cuttino or Mo, and not give Steve much of the blame. You win as a team, and you lose as a team... and Steve is still part of that team either way.