Win a championship at Duke and UNC, you are nothing special. Look at Irving, if he wins a championship he's just riding coattails because they already won last year. Now if you can lead some sorry team like Davidson to a final four, or even just get close, people will remember your legend way more than if you win the whole thing at Duke...
Ah, we're going to go into terse, know-it-all mode already, in the third post of our conversation. Interesting. Sorry you didn't enjoy the facepalm. It's reserved for people like you. The kind of fan who believes that no statistic or performance is legitimate unless it's against the team of your choosing. I'm sure you're aware that the Cougars have a #5 overall RPI and #5 non-conference RPI. I heartily invite you to go back and check Jimmer's performances in any non-conference game. But unfortunately you'll draw some imaginary boundary where statistics and performances only count against Kansas, Arizona, and Duke. Sorry, it must be terribly difficult for you to evaluate players. For you I have a special strategy to use: agree to disagree and avoid wasting my time.
43 vs SDSU, 33 vs Arizona, 25 vs UCLA, 49 vs Arizona, 37 vs Florida, 34 vs Gonzaga. His team is ranked in the top 10 and sweet 16. Is that not enough for you? I guess not. How will he perform in the NBA? Let's see, based on your logic, he will score 16 vs the Cavs, 10 vs the Bobcats, 6 vs the Rockets, 2 vs the Blazers, -4 vs the Heat and -10 vs the Celtics.
Thanks for actually replying, at least the first part. That's very impressive on the AZ and Florida front especially. I'm not sure why people are getting so snotty with me asking questions about him. I really like him as a player, a lot, and I'd say Eddie House is his *absolute floor* in the NBA, which is not half bad. So... I'm getting facepalms and insults (and a strange ad hom meltdown from napalm_black) b/c I just want to discuss the guy and ask about the college to NBA transition? And because I think, at minimum he's a productive NBA backup? To actually be able to discuss him, do I have to declare him the next Isaiah Thomas, Tiny Archibald, or John Stockton? It's possible, I guess. So hey, let's assume that'll be true and consider nothing else! I'll enjoy watching him and seeing what happens in the NBA, where he'll definitely play. But I'll step out of the thread so as not to taint the unmitigated coronation of sure-fire stardom. Cheers.
How can you reconcile these two statements? Honest question. I mean, if a guy turns out to be his "absolute floor", that's a bad thing...
I don't see Utah passing on Fredette, he would sell out the arena every night. We would have to trade up to get him and that's not worth it.
One thing I'm VERY concerned about Jimmer is whether he can actually get past guys at the next level. IMO, at the PG position, you need to either be slippery or a bowling-ball if you're going to get inside. From what I've seen of Fredette, he doesn't have the first step to cleanly get past guys, so he often has to bump them off in order to create interior space, and I'm skeptical of his ability to do this consistently against NBA caliber athletes for 82+ games. I think it's very hard to tell whether Jimmer will be able to make a living solely off stationary crossover moves with no threat of a drive. It's not an impossible task, as guys like Ben Gordon, Steve Nash, Monta Ellis and Steph Curry prove, but projecting whether someone can do it with a bigger and longer defender on them is beyond my abilities. I'm wondering if Marco Belinelli is a good comp for Jimmer: incredible degree of difficulty on his shots, unguardable when hot, useless and frustrating if cold.
Sorry, but "floor" doesn't mean the guy failed -- it means, at the very worst (meaning we and all analysts overestimated what he could get done), he will still be getting minutes in the NBA. After seeing so many draft failures who end up out of the league quickly, that's really not a bad statement for a 6 foot 2 inch guy. I've been thinking a lot about Tiny Archibald, 6 foot 1, who was one of my favorite players when I was growing up (long time ago for you youngsters.) He was the point guard when Larry Bird won his first championship in 1981 (against our Houston Rockets. ) Here are some numbers from Tiny in College and then the pros. At UTEP, 20 PPG over three seasons under Haskins But several 40 and even 50 points outbursts. Pros (Cin /KC / Boston): 13 yr career 18.6 PPG, 7.4 APG (Highs: 34 and 11.4, early in his career when he was everything at KC, leading the league in both categories) http://www.nba.com/history/players/archibald_bio.html So, it's hard to say whether a player this size can do what Tiny did in today's NBA, 30 years after Tiny retired. But Jimmer, with his range and the way he shakes people on the perimeter, and the way he changes speeds to get by people, reminds me a ton of Tiny Archibald. Jimmer is even a more natural long-range shooter in a more 3-point obsessed era. Tiny had a difficult upbringing and was a late bloomer, saved by Don Haskins in some ways. Jimmer seems like he's had a more supportive environment coming up and can't be called a late bloomer at all. We'll see if he's indeed peaking kind of early. So in conclusion: Eddie House <= NBA Jimmer <= Tiny Archibald That's my take, having thought about it more, and seeing more about Jimmer's performance against big competition. I know it's a big range.
You need to be complimented for an opened-minded. Most people would just argue for the sake of not losing an argument. You actually came back with a good reply. People have problem with your original point because you really didn't watch his game, which you said yourself. And saying he's not good because he played nobody is not a good argument, because he played a lot of good teams and he almost torched them all. More importantly, he's the ONLY option BYU has and every team tried everything imaginable to stop him, but he was still amazing to watch. Now, is he going to be an all-star in the NBA? I don't know and I doubt it, but it's not totally impossible that some might aruge. His game really reminds me to Stephen Curry. For a white point guard, I think his skin color both helps and hurts him in this case. It helps him because very few white point guard can succeed in the NBA now days, and it's fascinating to watch. It hurts him because, well, very few white point guard can succeed in the NBA now days
Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but if a guy only manages to realize the extreme minimum of his potential at the next level, I don't consider that a good thing - regardless of what level of performance that might be. You may not agree, but I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from.
Scouts maintain perspective as Jimmer-mania reaches its apex Link for story Story: Spoiler The catchy name, the T-shirt slogans, the music, the games against prison inmates, the prominent program, now the Sweet 16 and -- get this -- the senior status. Playing four years? What is that? Jimmer Fredette: Package from NCAA Marketing Heaven. Now about the rest of his career.... The captivating Fredette back story and scoring pyrotechnics may have turned him into a national sensation in the college game as BYU climbed to No. 3 in the nation in February. But around NBA front offices, it's hard to locate a team that rates him as more than a role player with a chance for a career as a solid contributor. Some don't even allow for that much star treatment heading into the Draft, saying his chance of success in the pros will depend on the rest of the roster. Fredette is projected for the middle of the first round -- maybe a little lower if the physical goes particularly bad at the Chicago pre-draft workouts -- and maybe a little higher if enough top prospects stay in school or overseas. He could touch the end of the lottery of a particularly weak Draft or he could last until the 20s, and nobody could be surprised at either outcome. "You just have to know what you're getting," one scout said. "He has limited athleticism. He's not the greatest ball handler. He's just an OK passer. But as far as flat out shooting, he's one of the best in the country. And if you put him around good players, he'll be even better." Fredette is, in other words, viewed as a complementary player in the NBA, not a budding star who will push to replicate a BYU career that has reached the Round of 16 against Florida in the Southeast Region in New Orleans. He is a 6-foot-2 point guard with a shooting guard game, and that's a listed 6-foot-2. If he goes to the Chicago camp and the actual number turns out to be more like 6-foot-1 or even 6-foot-and-1/2, as if often the case with inflated college numbers, Fredette is even more undersized for his role than previously thought. He can't run the point and can't check two guards with much size. The team that drafts him will need to partner him with a big point guard who defends, and taking him suddenly gets into the problems that are created as much as the problems that his arrival solves. Actually, it's unfair to single Fredette out for being unable to check shooting guards. That's not it. He doesn't defend anyone. It's not simply that he doesn't have the ability, either. In the greater concern for potential NBA suitors, Fredette doesn't seem to bother making much of an effort at that end. "I think he's almost invisible defensively," one personnel director told David Aldridge of TNT and NBA.com. "I watched Jackson Emery (the other BYU guard) out there and he's guarding like one and a half guys. I don't think I've ever seen (Fredette) bend his knees at the defensive end." Everything points to an NBA career as a situational player, perhaps as a third guard, definitely needing to play alongside a bigger guard who can handle the ball, preferably with a defensive presence. That, or with a team where he can camp out on the perimeter and provide air cover that takes some of the scoring load from the stars or from the interior. Because Fredette is a shooting savant. He can get his shot and make it, two factors that will always appeal to the pros. It's why T-shirts are selling for $20 a pop at the BYU bookstore, with white lettering on a navy blue background: YEAH HE SHOOTS FROM THERE It has Fredette's number, 32, just in case there was any doubt about the long-range specialist being hailed. Jimmer is the hero who has been named Player of the Year by some and is in contention for the national award by others, who has led the Jimmerization of college basketball, who just Jimmered the Gonzaga defense for 34 points while making seven of 12 from beyond the arc in the Round of 32. The storyline never gets old. Kid from a small town in upstate New York is steeled by an older brother, who would take 18-year-old Jimmer, their father and a couple other friends to play pickup games against inmates at a couple area prisons. Before BYU games, Jimmer would listen to rap songs made by his brother, also Mormon. There have been a lot of reasons to fall for him so far. I didnt really want to re-make a thread so I decided to posted on here
