[UT players dont live up] Don't mess with Texas players

I pretty much agree with this statement, but I have to give it up to Mack Brown and Greg Davis this year. By simplifying their offense, utilizing the zone-read, and running out of shotgun formation allowed Vince to "just be Vince" as Mack Brown says.

Just another reason a coach on the next level is going to have to build an offense around VY, and not fit VY into his offense.

 

....and this is why nobody takes your pretense of objectivity seriously.

 

well, let's not go vincent wolf on everyone just yet. he's done it once, and often, in spite of himself. mack brown's coaching had nothing to do with the OSU comeback and they should have lost to A&M, which would have fallen squarely at brown's feet for not having his team focused and ready to play that game.

he rebounded well, blew out colorado and beat, obviously, a great SC team. but it all would have been for naught had the aggies pulled off the upset.

but i know i'll never get an objective answer from you re: UT, so let me ask you this: what's your opinion of duke basketball players? if you were an NBA GM, and you had a chance to spend a top 5 pick on jj reddick, would you give any thought to the fact more duke players seem to fail than succeed on the next level? would you wonder about coach K's system and whether it adequately prepares players for the the NBA? if not, then you're not doing your job.

i think, in addition to being poorly coached, brown caudles his players too much and i think they leave UT overwhelmed by the real world. what's happening with VY right now is a perfect example. there's a sense of entitlement that these guys all seem to have which translates to holdouts, weight gain and underachievement with enough consistency to merit mention.

 

But guess what Ric? We didn't lose to OSU and we didn't lose to A&M so saying "well nothing would have mattered if we had lost" is pointless. And as bad as we did play, we still beat them by 11 at their field.

As far as Duke is concerned, yes, there have been a lot of disappointments but you don't look at the past players to determine how good someone is right now. Elton Brand and Grant Hill (barring injuries) have done just fine out of Coach K's system, it's all about the players.

Once again, you are trying to blame certain player's situations on Mack Brown. You say it translates into holdouts, tell me Ric, how many holdouts have UT players had? I'm assuming you mean Cedric Benson's holdout last summer, it has nothing to do with his college coach, it has everything to do with his agent.

What about Chris Simms? Nathan Vasher? Casey Hampton? Priest Holmes? You pick out a couple bad situations and try to blame it on the university? I guess Terrell Owens problems stem right from his time at Tennesse huh?

 

that doesn't excuse poor coaching. that you had to sweat A&M with so much on the line was brown's fault. are you kidding me? what would your reaction have been had they lost that game? better, what was your reaction as you watched it? my guess is that brown was cursed once or twice.

no, it really isn't - systems can hide weaknesses and protect less talented players.

yes, cedric benson, the same guy who said he'd rather win a heisman than a title, which was then defended by his college coach. he caudles players. hell, simms used to arrive at postgame press conferences sucking on brown's tete.

well, priest holmes was gone, iirc, by the time mack brown got there. regardless, no one's made any declarative statements about ALL ut football players failing on the next level; only that a pattern has developed among their top prosects who have played for mack brown, and that it would be egregious to just dismiss it outright as mere coincidence, especially when you consider that the team routinely underachieved with said talent. they tried to underachieve this year. VY wouldn't allow it.

 

So what are you talking about here - he's not a good gameday coach? He doesn't make adjustments? Honestly, you can make this same damaging assessment for every coach ever if you're going to highlight every every game where they ever appeared mortal. Pete Carroll's coaching didn't help USC beat Fresno or Notre Dame -- and on down the line for every game, every team, ad infinitum.

Not to mention that it is a pile of speculation and subjectivity - who knows how much his halftime speech worked? Who knows how much a phrase he told a certain player resonated at some point and enabled him to make a key play?

This is the type of thing you pillory somebody with when you're out of bullets.

...and this is from the same person who went apesh-t over discussions of who was the best player in college football AFTER the rosebowl. Your alternative scenario is nice, but not relevant. There is no team that would have been undefeated if we consdier the alternative scenario in which they lost a game that they won. None. Ever.

My opinion is that some are good and some are bad. So when evaluating JJ Redick I would consider Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Luol Deng, Chris Duhon, as well, rather than just considering that Jay Williams likes to ride motorcycles or that Christian Laetner si kind of an ******* or that Bobby Hurley got hit by a bus. If not, I wouldn't be doing my job.

...or it translates into overachievement in the case of the examples that have been noted. Nathan Vasher was a 3rd round pick, and is now an All-Pro corner. DD Lewis was an undrafted FA and was a starter for the Seahawks in the Super Bowl.

If you want to crucify college coaches for underachievement - why is your ire only directed at Texas?

Why not Jim Tressell? HE's only got one national title and there's FAR more NFL talent coming out of Columbus than Austin. Bob Stoops has multiple high profile December chokes on his resume now despite being loaded with talent and producing pro-bowl players like Tommie Harris. Larry Coker - what a turd. NFL talent by the busload comes out of Miami (a lot of which are busts, see Buchanon, Phillip) and he's only got one title. Same same for Lloyd Carr. Hey Phillip Fulmer, you're also a lucky title winner who underachieves.

In conclusion all of these guys suck by your criteria. Who is good, Ric? I guess we're left with Pete Carroll and a bunch of garbage.

BTW, I'm guessing you went to a Texas school (not UT) or a state school in a state that borders Texas, despite the fact that you've become Tommy Trojan of late.

Your posturing as the lone objective observer in a sea of burnt orange is just not credible - posts like the ones on this thread ("let's pile on Mack because he only beat A&M by 11") prove it.

 

If you wanted to pick and choose top draft picks from any school you could make a list like that. What's weird about that list is that of the seven people he mentioned - only three were Mack Brown recruits, and one never played for Brown at all. Should this article be about Brown, or the lasting legacy of John Macovick's poor recruiting?

 

I didn't go to UT, but that's a poorly based judgment on what Mack Brown has done for them as a coach. Under your speculation, Carroll is not a good coach as well since ND, Fresno, etc. should've beaten em. This is a college level football team that excelled throughout the regular season. There will be close games regardless of who was playing. Duke lost a game this year that they probably should've have lost in NCAA Basketball. Virginia Tech was cruising in NCAA football before disappearing. The point is, the team pulled it out and that's usually a credit to coaching.

More examples: Colts have poor coaching because they ... yeah.

Steelers doesn't have a great coach or they would've cruised from the get-go because they didn't have the best plan to begin the season and struggled just to make the playoffs.

I could go on all day, but "almost" and in some cases, losses, is a poor excuse to determine a successful coach as a bad coach because of a lapse in the team's play or even in a coaching instance. It's a sports game, there's no sure thing.

 

Look how dissappointing most Penn State top 5 draft picks have been over the last 15 years. I guess Joe Pa coddles his stars way too much. Nebraska players also used to get a reputation for flopping, was it Osburn's fault?

The bottom line is like half 1st rounder dissappoint majorly. Texas has plenty of guys outperform where they were drafted too as pointed out. I think the whole argument about "he went to xx.. more likely to fail" is quite silly. Got to judge each player individually.

Side note: I make fun of Penn Stater's atrocious pro track record, not because I think there is something really there, but because I have always strongly disliked them because they used to beat on the Mountaineers (on of my teams) relentlessly....in other words talking crapola about a clearly superior team that always frustrated us to no end. More and more I see a lot of people here doing the same as Texas probably beats on their fav school as Joe Pa and PSU did to the Moutaineers and pretty much everyone else they played in the East (before moving to the Big 10).

 

So I guess that makes Pete Carroll an absolute terrible coach since they almost lost to ND and Fresno State, struggled against Oregon State and Arizona State. What would you say about that? My guess is that Carroll was cursed way more than once or twice. The point is that you are trying to bring up a "close call" lost to put down Mack when all that matters is that we won.

I wouldn't call it poor coaching by Mack as we still beat the Aggies by 11 at home, putting up 41 points w/o a spectacular game by VY (in which you try to make an argument for later on). But I would actually applaud Fran and McGhee for putting up a pretty good fight.

Tell me Ric, what is a college coach's job? Winning games or producing pro-level players? What's in their job description?

I'll assume that you'll say both and I would agree. But Coach K is no less of a coach because he has had some busts in the NBA just like Mack is no less of a coach because of an article that points out a selection of players that didn't pan out, but cleverly leaves out players that did. They are both championship calibur coaches and there is nothing you can say to negate that.

Jason White is one of the best college QB's in history, yet he didn't even get drafted. Is that a knock on Stoops?

Statements like this make me wonder why I even bother. Cedric spoke his mind, it probably wasn't the best idea, but he did and who cares? You think if Bush said he'd rather win the Heisman than the title, Carroll wouldn't be defending him either. Yep, that's what I thought. I'm not even gonna respond to the Simms comment.

Nevermind the fact that we were a top 5 defensive team and led the NCAA in scoring w/o a big name RB or receiver.

Nevermind the fact that Mack Brown has the best winning % among active coaches with just as many Championships as Carroll, Stoops, Tressell, etc...

Nevermind the fact that the article has already called Benson a bust after playing 4-5 games in his rookie year. Or the fact that Roy Williams is playing with Joey Harrington.

Dare I say? Hater in the house!!