Objectively, yes. But that doesn't mean that there weren't steps he took in the transition period away from the crumbling dynasty of Mack Brown, one of the most effective coaches in modern history. Charlie didn't accomplish everything he set out to do, but his work wasn't a total dumpster fire. If Tom Herman is half the coach his reputation claims him to be, he should be able to turn things around fairly quickly, because Charlie did a lot of the dirty work already.
Then you were seeing what you wanted to see. Last year was one worst tackling teams I've seen and I've been watching Longhorn football since 1969. That team reminded me of some of the Mackovic years.
It's hard to measure this because it's impossible to separate talent from coaching. But looking at the limited NFL players that Texas has produced the last few years is telling of how little talent was on the roster when Strong took over. It's still unclear as to whether any of the current players that Herman is getting will be NFL draftees, though, so we don't have a comparison point yet. But at the very minimum, we have a better QB today than we had when Strong took over, and that's the most significant piece the puzzle. Buchele is worlds better than than the Ash/Swoopes/Heard mess.
"But Mack had top 5 rated recruiting classes!" is incredibly disingenuous. He loved to sign guys early, and the rankers assumed that those guys were great because Texas signed them as juniors. Where are they now? Hell, where were they as Sophs/Juniors at UT?
Dude you got to shorten your posts. We all know Mack's bio, but what he was doing the 5+ years before it started going downhill is irrelevant to the discussion that he didn't leave the roster in very good shape. We agree that rankings don't mean everything and there is no doubt that he had the results early on, but he didn't at the end and that's what mattered at the end. If you compare the individual units that Herman is working with versus Strong his first year, I think you'd be hard pressed to say you'd take the latter outside of DL and DB maybe. Also, I have yet to see anyone on this board claim that we're going to win the Big 12, let alone a National Championship so not sure what "burnt orange glasses" you speak of. But even there were, the viewpoint that the "entire team is in bad shape" and there is "zero chance" we beat USC is an equally extreme and ridiculous viewpoint IMO.
My point by bringing up his past success was to say that he had a proven history of bringing in and developing talented players as oppose to what Charlie has done. Those raw numbers are what make me believe that the lack of success of Mack's players had more to do with Charlie as oppose to Mack. If you believe that Mack's players weren't as good because of how they performed then how can you say that Charlie's players are that much better when they have performed worse than Mack's did? You have players that did worse in their senior year with Charlie than their Junior year with Mack. My message here is there is not a consistent judging standard between the players that Mack left and the ones that Charlie is leaving. I have not said that anyone is claiming UT will win the big 12. My point was that people are not being honest with themselves with how bad this team was and you can find that debate in recent posts in this thread. If you remember, I was one of the few people who predicted UT would beat Notre Dame when we all thought ND was good. I'm not just a pessimistic person. Based on what I see, I feel much differently about USC. Also, I don't think you understand how good I think USC is. To me, it's the same as saying that UT has no way of beating Alabama on the road. Was USC as successful as Alabama last year? Of course not but (IMO) USC grew so much after they found their QB and they ended the year as one of the top teams in college football and they should be a favorite for the playoffs. So, that statement as as much (likely less) to do with my thoughts about UT and more about my thoughts about USC. Like I've said, I HOPE I'M WRONG but that is my personal and informed opinion. Yes it is hard to separate talent from coaching is is a part of why I feel like you can't say that Charlie left better players than Mack. However, the numbers to me (and what I see on the field) lead me to believe the difference in what the two coaches left are equal at best. Texas didn't put anyone in the draft in 2014 because the 2013 team was mostly Juniors and 5 of them were drafted. I think they would have all done better as would other guys if Charlie was a better coach. In terms of who Mack left, Malcom Brown the DT is a starter for the Patriots. Jordan Hicks was the leading tackler for the Eagles until he got hurt at the end of the season. Malcom Brown the RB doesn't get many touches but played in every game and on a roster which is rare with respect to college football players. Quandre Diggs played in every game last year and had 30 tackles as a Nickel. Hassan Ridgeway played in every game last year but it's still too early to see what he'll do. Foreman would have gone high in this year's draft but he had an injury so we'll see. . I mostly (and what to) agree with you about the QB situation. The thing is that you have the benefit of time to judge the QBs that Mack left as oppose to Charlie's. I don't think you can look at the group and see a huge difference in potential. Mack left: Junior Ash: Top Calibur but brain damaged Sophomore Swoops: People saw a LOT of potential but only threw 13 passes in his Freshman year. I don't think he had it however he had 4 offensive Coordinators and 3 QB coaches in his time at UT. I don't know if he would have been a good QB with other coaches but I do believe he would have been better Freshman Jerrod Heard: Similar to Swoops in all ways. I do feel differently now that Herman has not given him a shot at QB again but that could be because Heard sees an easier path to the NFL by being a slot receiver. Still, going into Strong's year this was a player that people felt really good about. Strong left: Sophomore Buchelle: He has potential but his conditioning was disappointing given that he was a spring enrollment. The kids needs weight but maybe we'll see that after his 1st off season. His performance also degraded heavily as the season went on and likely benefited with how effective the running game was with Foreman who was a Mack recruit. I hope for the best but his arm strength should be a major concern given how little he threw up the middle on hard posts. I assume those plays weren't called because he didn't have the strength to zip them. Still, maybe he could be good. He was JUST a freshman after all. Point here is that you can't look at this and think that we have a solid QB waiting for Herman. I think you can feel more confident than What you got from Mack since those guys were mostly potential when you exclude the excellent QB David Ash was. We won't count him since he was damaged goods. Poor Kid. Freshman Sam Ehlinger: He's one of those great on paper pickups like Gilbert. I was really excited about him but his two major injuries in his senior year of High School is concerning but guys get hurt. He also is a good size. I really hope we can redshirt him this year. I think that means he can only play in 3 games. Not getting that kid from LSU hurts that. Look, I'm not saying that Charlie's kids won't ever be good. I'm saying that there is nothing on the field that suggests they are much better (or at all better) than Mack's players. It's based on the numbers which are objective (wins, team stats and Sagarin ratings) but also on watching the team this last year. They can be better but they have to be taught how to play college football. It's not a thing of just giving them different play formations.
A 247 Update by Bobby Burton: Nothing huge here. It's just nice to see these guys on the field again and changes developing in their play.
To each their own I guess. It just begs the question of what happened at the end of Mack's tenure. I don't believe it was coaching because let's be honest, he was never known for that. But the fact that he recruited 10 straight classes that didn't produce a single OL NFL draft pick is pretty telling. And lol at being disappointed at an 18-year old freshman's conditioning, especially given the fact that he didn't miss a single game because of it.
Take a look. Seriously, I knew we were in a drought but not that bad. Yup. Pointing out that he didn't play that well down the stretch is understandable, but being disappointed that an 18-year old kid wasn't rocked up after 6 months in the program despite him starting all 12 games and breaking almost all of the UT Freshman passing records? I dunno man.
Could you clarify what you meant when you said Mack didn't produce a draft pick from 10 recruiting classes? Also, don't make up words that I didn't say. I said he should have had more weight on him which is what everyone said when he got to UT. Again, strange thing to make someone laugh out loud about. Have you seen Veep? That's pretty funny.
Meant without a OL draft pick. My bad. So you are literally disappointed with how much he weighed? Exactly how much weight did you want him to add in 6 months? So many players come in needing to add weight and a lot of them have the luxury of 18 months of strength and conditioning, practices, and just growing up in general. Shane had 6 months. And yes I find it funny when people find the smallest things to pick at. There have been a lot of disappointing things about this program the last 5-10 years, a freshman's weight shouldn't be one of them, especially when it seemingly didn't hurt him.
Where did you get 10 years without an OL draft pick? I see a 5 year gap which is still something but 5 years is vastly different than 10. That also is if you don't count Tight Ends but fine. We can ignore them. I mean, am I reading this wrong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Texas_Longhorns_in_the_NFL_draft But just so I understand, your knock against Mack is that he didn't produce an OL pick? That's really specific. I mean I get what you mean but I don't know how negatively that affects his accomplishments considering all of the other kids he got drafted. You can say it sucks that he only got 3 QBs drafted in a 10 year span but it's not easy to get a QB drafted. Still, that is an important position. Ash would have absolutely been drafted but we all know how that turned out. He at least injured his ribs last year on a hit. He might have had more problems. I can't remember. He was undersized for a QB in college football which meant that he was more likely to get hurt and more likely to be affected by hits. Like going 5 years without having an Offensive Lineman drafted : ) It wasn't the only thing. It's an example of a major problem with the strength and conditioning program under Charlie which is not a little thing. They had almost 8 months with him. That is a lot of time for adding muscle.
Recruiting classes, not years. Tony Hills was the last OL drafted and he was part of the 2003 class, Mack did not recruit a single one after that. And the knock isn't just OL because you could really say the same for QB, RB and WR as well. And honestly not trying to dwell on just the number of picks because so much can factor into that, but if you look at the number of players Mack was putting into the league early on versus what we saw in his latter classes, there is something to be said. Only thing I heard was a strained neck in the Kansas game but he ended up coming back in. Yes he was more likely to get hurt and affected by hits, but that didn't seem to be an issue so honestly not sure why you'd be disappointed about something that didn't happen.
That's why I admitted it was subjective. Tackling and defensive awareness did go up markedly when Charlie took over coordinating the defense, but his defensive philosophy never seemed sound when played against experienced Big 12 spread offenses. If a team exploited a weakness they saw on film or made adjustments at halftime, the defense would panic, get out of position, and make fatal mistakes routinely. You could see the "hear we go again" all over their body language. Hence the missed tackles and blown coverage, which is what happens when 7 of your top 10 tacklers are sophomores and you don't have coaches who are confident that their jobs are safe next year. If Herman is the real deal, he should have the athletic talent on campus to install his system and build a winning record this upcoming season. That's why we hired him without any real interview process, and I fail to see how that is an unrealistic expectation.
Charlie was in over his head and the record during his time at UT was the worst in the history of UT, that is a fact. That being said, Charlie did good things culturally speaking as far as teaching these boys how to act like men. His successes were limited to off the field. His recruiting was O.K. but it sure wasn't at the Mack Brown level (not including the last 3 years). Mack failed to get a good production out of the QB position those last 3 years. Recruiting the younger McCoy was a disaster for him. Even with all that, his worst season was a 8-5 win season, something that Charlie didn't even get close to doing, 6-7, 5-7, 5-7. We love you Charlie but you need to coach else where. All the best XOXO
I see what you are saying. That's fair but Texas was still 11th in the country with players drafted by the NFL up to the 2015 draft. I couldn't find a ranking that took into account the last two years. The point is that is still very high and the only way you are going to see draft picks from every position is if they are one of the top producers in the country. Yea that would be great but you're just getting greedy at that point. You're nitpicking and making the standard to which to judge the positions you don't see on the list when IMO the numbers overall are not in your favor. http://www.burntorangenation.com/2016/10/6/13192344/shane-buechele-texas-longhorns-rib-injury Look, I'm really burnt out on discussing this. Let's just agree to disagree. I've made a few updates on the team. That might be a little more enjoyable to talk about at this point. Feel free to make a final point if you like.
Moving on, -Via 247 The latest quarterback to have his named linked to Texas as Tom Herman and Co. go about trying to find a quarterback to add to the room is former Notre Dame quarterback Malik Zaire. Trending Up Patrick Hudson (RS-Fr.) and Denzel Okafor (Soph.), OL We’ve talked a lot about these two already over the last few days, but it’s worth repeating that the ankle injury to Zach Shackelford and the academic issues facing Brandon Hodges have opened the door for Hudson and Okafor to each make a move up the depth chart. Everything I’ve been told behind the scenes regarding Hudson is that he’s been onboard with Tom Herman and the new regime and hasn’t been shy about putting his nose to the grindstone. The previous staff had serious questions about how much football mattered to Hudson and whether he wanted to push himself to be great. As far as I know, that hasn’t been a problem for the Silsbee product this offseason. I talked to a source who confirmed what I reported recently about Okafor: the staff was going to take some time early in spring ball to figure out where to best use him, which is why Okafor worked both tackle spots and right guard through the first four practices. Hodges being out of the mix now means there’s a spot for Okafor at right tackle where Tristan Nickelson, who reportedly struggled in Saturday’s scrimmage, can be pushed for his starting job. Erick Fowler, LB, Soph. It’s been a rough offseason at times for Fowler. Without going into his issues, the saving grace for him has been that he’s been able to prove his worth to the staff now that the pads have come on. Fowler went from being a virtual afterthought entering spring practice to now having worked his way up to being with the No. 2 defense. That might not sound like a big deal for a former U.S. Army All-American who was a signing day steal for the Longhorns, but it is considering numerous sources told me Fowler was said to have had a rough start once winter conditioning started in January. Jeffrey McCulloch, LB, Soph. One of the reasons why I wanted to watch linebacker individual drills on Saturday was to watch McCulloch work and see how Todd Orlando coached him. Perhaps it was a case of confirmation bias, but I came away with the feeling that McCulloch is going to push Naashon Hughes very hard for the starting B-backer spot this offseason. While Orlando runs a 3-4 defense, as much nickel as the Longhorns run means the fourth linebacker (which would be McCulloch over Anthony Wheeler based on what I’ve been told and what I’ve seen) will be taken off of the field in favor of the nickelback a large percentage of the time. McCulloch looks (and from what we’ve heard has performed) like a guy who needs to be on the field. Beating out Hughes is his best shot to crack the starting lineup, and that battle could turn into a fierce one by the time spring ball is in the books. Trending Down John Burt, WR, Jr. It sounds like Burt is still having issues when it comes to catching the football. It’s not anything that’s going to break him or hurt his chances to earn reps in the fall, but Burt and Dorian Leonard appear to be safely behind Jerrod Heard and Collin Johnson at the two outside receiver spots right now. Peyton Aucoin, TE, RS-Fr. Not only was Aucoin with the training staff during Saturday’s scrimmage, there’s no indication from anyone I’ve talked to that he made a significant push while Andrew Beck was working his way back from a foot injury. Beck is expected to be back at practice without restrictions as early as today. It remains to be seen now if Aucoin missed his open window to make a move. Edwin Freeman, LB, Jr. Perhaps the most consistent linebacker when he was on the field in 2016, Freeman doesn’t appear to have made a dent under the new regime. He’s fallen behind Fowler already and it doesn’t seem as though Freeman is a guy the staff is high on at this time. That could change, but with the Longhorns being so deep at linebacker someone is inevitably going to get lost in the shuffle. (Howe) This is pretty disappointing news and justifies my previous major concerns about RBs given Warren and Houston's injury issues. Guys get injured so hopefully this is just another fluke. I hope they can get Sophomore Porter on track after a mediocre freshman season. Good thing Herman was really aggressive about bringing in more RBs in the recruiting class. Shackelford had some injury issues last season so hopefully he can bounce back. He still had a good freshman year. The OL is the part of the team you have to feel best about going into this season.
Once again, you are arguing his entire body of work when that's not what's at issue. Mack absolutely killed it for the first 12 years, no one is debating that, he won a ton of games, a Natty, and put a lot of players in the league. But the last 4 years were not good, a big part of that was recruiting and player development and the numbers drafted by year absolutely show that. We'll definitely agree to disagree and to each their own, but if we were just looking at total number of wins, total number of drafted players, National Championships, etc...guys like Mack, Les, Bowden, etc. wouldn't have gone out the way they did.
What would you compare it to otherwise?? If you're comparing it to late 2000's mack brown recruiting it's like comparing Harden to Havlicek. The game changed dramatically in the interim, particularly high school football but most importantly, the number of scholarships stayed roughly fixed, while the number of players capable of filling them doubled or tripled nationwide.
