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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. I. LEWIS LIBBY, also known as "SCOOTER LIBBY"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by mc mark, Jan 18, 2007.

  1. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    I don't care what the site says, that's a lake... looks like Lake Nassar and the Aswan Dam...

    Here's a sat pic from NASA of Lake Nassar...

    [​IMG]
     
  2. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    and what river made Lake Nassar?
     
  3. JeopardE

    JeopardE Contributing Member

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    Only in D&D ... people debating about the river Nile in the middle of a perjury trial debate.
     
  4. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    This is no debate, just a simple recitation of the facts. Still, please enlighten me what the crucial distinction is. other than the one I pointed out... that "classified" is a legal and governmental term used to identify information that should not be in the public realm. Do a search and you will quickly find that all government agencies talk about classified information. You will never see the term "covert information." Covert has no standing in the legal realm, only classified information. That's why Fitzgerald talks about Plame's classified status. It is a fact that her status and responsibilities at the CIA were classified, that is, that information was not be known by any beyond those who had a need to know. The fact that some people work at the CIA is not classified. Plame's employment was classified because she did stuff where it was not in the best interest of the US to have it known that she worked at the CIA.

    Parse it however you want, but we now know Plame worked covertly and that that information was classified before the White House leaked it.
     
  5. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    The Aswan Dam made Lake Nassar. Nice try though.
     
  6. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    we do not know this. please, provide evidence to support your assertion that Plame was "covert, ie covered." absent such, it's all wishful conjecture. info may be classified. people, may, or may not, be covert. please demonstrate which Plame was, and how revealing such is a crime. and assuming both, why fleisher and armitage have been prosecuted for neither.
     
  7. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    fact:
     
  8. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    oh, if wishing made it so...if it were true, why did the CIA press officer confirm her employment to Novak?

    again, if this is true, where is the indictment?
     
  9. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    Well obviously if Libby hadn't obstructed the investigation we might have an indictment. But we'll never know.
     
  10. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    really? armitage and Fleisher both owned up before fitz ever talked to libby. if fitz knew who the leaker was, and filed no charges, how can you suggest that Plame was cover/protected? fitz investigation is now finished- is he derelict in his duty by not bringing charges against either Big A?
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    The evidence is in the fact that her co-workers at the CIA said as much. They are people with the most intimate knowledge of her position at the CIA.

    Further evidence is the fact that the CIA filed the crime report. The fact that the people who are in the best position to know, say that it is so, is about as good of proof as there is.

    Just because you choose to ignore that evidence doesn't mean that it isn't out there.
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    If Plame wasn't undercover why didn't Libby's attorney bring that up in his defense? Obviously Libby couldn't have been obstructing justice if there was no crime committed.

    As for why Armitage and Fleischer weren't charged that's a mystery to me but from what I've heard it sounds like they came to some sort of arrangement with the prosecutor probably in exchange for not prosecuting.
     
  13. rimrocker

    rimrocker Contributing Member

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    The knowledge of people's "covertness" is obviously classified. I don't see why you can't grasp this concept. Anyway, here you go. If you want more, I'll can find a lot more, these were just a couple of the first...

    And on another point...

     
  14. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    man you do, do your research.

    anyhow im going to see if i can make a point and i guess a general statement.

    but if this was someone under the clinton admin. or another dem. president. and if this was exactly the same story do you think basso and TJ would be here reciting the same things, saying that whatever said dem. should not be prosecuted because the CIA was not covert; etc. ???????????? :confused:

    or rather would it be the opposite.


    and that goes for you also rimrocker or mc clark or whoever else thats glad to see Scooter go down. do you think you would somehow twist the facts into showing said dem. didnt do anything all that bad and should not be charged.

    its interesting in my opinion to try and look at things from that perspective.

    i may be way off when i say this but i think the sides may be completely switched. and it depresses me to think that some people when it comes to polotickkss there side rep/dem or whomever can do NO wrong. because your looking at the people you support with clouded eyes just because they think like you do in social issues.

    so here is to barack being a muslim, al gore using a million dollars for utilities, tom delay being a sheep in wolves clothing, dick cheney and all friends pocketing millions of dollars from a bloody war, ms. clinton for being a cold hearted b****, and george bush not being suitable for being the mayor in my hometown of brenham :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  15. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I think that post nicely sums up any additional evidence that basso was looking for relating to her covert status.

    I hope this time basso, doesn't just come back later to make the same claims he's making now, and pretend that such hard proof never existed.
     
  16. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    Scooter Libby’s Pardon Problem

    President Bush may well pardon Scooter Libby. But he’d have to flout Justice Department guidelines in order to do it.

    WEB-EXCLUSIVE COMMENTARY
    By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
    Newsweek

    March 7, 2007 - The pardon campaign began almost immediately. No sooner had word come down in federal court that I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby had been convicted on four felony counts than conservative allies began pressuring President Bush to step in and effectively overturn the verdict. The National Review Online was first off the block, publishing a “Pardon Libby” editorial barely two hours after the verdict was announced; the piece denounced the entire CIA-leak case as a “travesty” and the product of “media scandal-mongering.” The Wall Street Journal followed suit Wednesday, saying Bush shouldn’t even wait for Libby to file his appeal. “The time for a pardon is now,” the Journal declared. (The Web site of the Libby Defense Trust, www.scooterlibby.com, linked to those and other editorials calling for a pardon Wednesday.)

    But there’s one significant roadblock on the path to Libby’s salvation: Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff does not qualify to even be considered for a presidential pardon under Justice Department guidelines.

    From the day he took office, Bush seems to have followed those guidelines religiously. He's taken an exceedingly stingy approach to pardons, granting only 113 in six years, mostly for relatively minor fraud, embezzlement and drug cases dating back more than two decades. Bush’s pardons are “fewer than any president in 100 years,” according to Margaret Love, former pardon attorney at the Justice Department.

    Following the furor over President Bill Clinton’s last-minute pardon of fugitive financier Marc Rich (among others), Bush made it clear he wasn’t interested in granting many pardons. “We were basically told [by then White House counsel and now Attorney General Alberto Gonzales] that there weren’t going to be pardons—or if there were, there would be very few,” recalls one former White House lawyer who asked not to be identified talking about internal matters.

    The president has since indicated he intended to go by the book in granting what few pardons he’d hand out—considering only requests that had first been reviewed by the Justice Department under a series of publicly available guidelines.

    Those regulations, which are discussed on the Justice Department Web site at www.usdoj.gov/pardon, would seem to make a Libby pardon a nonstarter in George W. Bush’s White House. They “require a petitioner to wait a period of at least five years after conviction or release from confinement (whichever is later) before filing a pardon application,” according to the Justice Web site.

    Moreover, in weighing whether to recommend a pardon, U.S. attorneys are supposed to consider whether an applicant is remorseful. “The extent to which a petitioner has accepted responsibility for his or her criminal conduct and made restitution to ... victims are important considerations. A petitioner should be genuinely desirous of forgiveness rather than vindication,” the Justice Web site states.

    Of course, there is nothing that requires Bush to follow these guidelines in reviewing a pardon for Libby (whose lawyer, Ted Wells, stated on the courthouse steps Tuesday that he intended to push for a retrial, adding that he has “every confidence that Mr. Libby will be vindicated.”) As Love, the former pardon attorney, points out, “the president can do whatever he wants.” Both Clinton and Bush’s father, President George H.W. Bush (who pardoned Casper Weinberger among other Iran-contra figures), bear that out.

    Still, Bush himself publicly reaffirmed his determination to stick to the Justice pardon guidelines as recently as last month. In a Feb. 1 interview with Fox News anchor Neal Cavuto, Bush was asked about whether he would pardon Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, two former U.S. Border Patrol agents convicted of shooting a Mexican drug dealer who was fleeing across the border into Mexico. Their case has become a cause celebre for many conservatives and anti-immigrant activists who believe it symbolizes the federal government’s lack of aggressive enforcement of border controls. Fueled by CNN immigration critic Lou Dobbs and Colorado Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo, supporters of the two former agents have been flooding the White House with e-mails and phone calls seeking pardons for Ramos and Compean.

    Bush’s response in Cavuto’s inquiry was telling. He repeatedly pointed to the Justice Department pardon process to explain how he would make his decision.

    “You know, I get asked about pardons on a lot of different cases. And there’s a procedure in place,” he said at first. When Bush added that he has been telling members of Congress who have contacted him about the matter to “look at the facts in the case,” Cavuto followed up: “So what are you saying?”

    “I’m saying … there is a process in any case for a president to make a pardon decisions. In other words, there is a series of steps that are followed, so that the pardon process is, you know, a rational process,” the president answered.

    Doug Berman, a Ohio State University law professor who specializes in pardons, said the president may have just been pointing to the Justice Department process as a way to “avoid responsibility” for the political flap over the Border Patrol agents’ case. But Bush has always used his pardon power sparingly—dating back to his days in the Texas governor’s mansion. In 1998, Bush came under enormous political pressure to commute the death sentence of Karla Faye Tucker, a convicted murderer who had a well-publicized conversion to Christianity. But despite pleas from conservative evangelist Pat Robertson, Pope John Paul II and many others, Bush refused to save her life, and Tucker became the first woman executed in Texas since the Civil War.

    None of this means that, in the last days of his presidency, Bush won’t feel differently about Libby (who ironically once worked as a lawyer for Marc Rich in an earlier effort to win him a pardon). Libby's supporters will argue forcefully that he was unjustly prosecuted and others, like former deputy secretary of State Richard Armitage (who first leaked Valerie Plame Wilson’s identity to columnist Richard Novak) were more culpable and should have been charged. Cheney—who once praised Libby as “one of the most capable and talented individuals I have ever known”—may well make a personal plea to the president.

    But for now, one intriguing clue as to White House thinking came from a well-known Washington lobbyist and White House ally who was steering reporters away from the pardon idea this week. “The guidance I get is Libby doesn’t qualify under the guidelines,” the lobbyist, who asked not to be identified talking about sensitive matters, told a reporter in a TV “green room” this week. The lobbyist wouldn’t say who provided the guidance. But the fine print of the Justice Department guidelines may prove the toughest barrier for Libby to overcome.

    URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17507199/site/newsweek/page/3/
     
  17. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    I think that if the situations where reversed politically you would see different opinions. Just compare Democrats and Republican views on the use of military power and the UN in regard to Kosovo as compared to now. That said some things are so obvious that it strains credibility to challenge them. Arguing that Plame's identity wasn't classified is one of those as there is a mountain of evidence behind and many of the major figures in the Admin. aren't even challenging that.
     
  18. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    you're misunderstanding the obstruction charge. it was related to the investigation, the alledged lying to the FBI/GJ, not the supposed leak.
     
  19. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    so you're understanding is that this whole investigation did not even touch the leak?
     
  20. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    What is the investigation about? I understand the charge but the investigation is about revealing a covert identity. If that's not criminal in the first place then that should be material to the defense. I don't have the case transcripts but from what I recall this was never an issue that the defense brought up.

    Libbys defense wasn't that he thought Plame wasn't covert but that he forgot who told him Plame's identity.
     

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