Yanukovich is a corrupt b*stard that deserved to be removed from office but Major is right that many support him and many in the Ukraine support keeping closer ties with Russia. I don't know about what conditions he was elected under but I think it is a mistake to look at this revolution as being the will of most of Ukraine. I'm looking at this somewhat like when Mubarak was overthrown. His time was long up and he deserved what he got but what do we know about what comes next?
Just curious Northside but what do you think about the reports of fascist and Neo-Nazi groups in the revolution and from some reports being instigators of much of the violence?
Why isn't anyone in this thread talking about what Europe will do? What about Germany, France, England etc? The US may or may not do anything but Europe should and the US should back them. Putin is such a bully. Ukrainians will fight till the death, it's in their blood. This is about to get UGLY. A war has been started. A real war.
I know about them. No street protest comes without some ugly elements, and I do not think the protesters are without fault. However, as soon as the ex-president fought them with disproportionate force and police snipers, he lost all legitimacy, and committed the greatest injustice that can be done: using the overbearing power of the state the people funded against the very same people, shedding blood.
Because of the NATO Treaty and how the military structure has developed the Europeans won't do anything without the US taking the lead. This was the case with Bosnia which was much closer to Western Europe than the Ukraine is.
When these protestors associated themselves with neo-Nazis and forcibly took over power in Kiev, they lost the moral authority to complain when the other side responds in the same way. There were few pro-Russian protestors in Kiev because they were very unpopular there. Maybe these Maidan protestors should take a hint and stay out of areas where they're not wanted, especially after that they set the precedent that it's OK to use power in the street to push people around. There's absolutely no injustice here, these protestors were simply beaten by their own methods. If you complain about that you're just being hypocritical and biased.
Oh, by the way, the Mayor of Kharkov said that the neo-Nazis had guns and explosives and used them against the pro-Russian protestors. http://rt.com/news/donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest-365/
Europe is weak, that's why. They haven't had any real power in a LONG time. The world superpowers are the US, Russia, and China. Europe occasionally talks a big game, but even they know that they don't have any way of backing anything up unless the US does it for them.
I really don't want to sound like I am defending the Yanukovich regime but I think you and others are simplifying the situation. From my understanding was that these weren't just a handful of ugly elements looking to F^%( Sh^t up as you find in many protests but well armed and playing a large role in it. That is one reason why many of the police were also being killed and captured in the protests and also why attempted truces fell apart. The role that these extremist groups are playing in the revolution is one that makes me very uneasy about. It is also a critical question before we should contemplate the US getting involved as about who we are getting involved with. These questions were rightfully raised by many when it looked like the US was going to military intervene in Syria yet those who are calling Obama weak for not confronting Putin now seem to be conveniently forgetting issues like that.
This was brought up earlier but my guess is the PRC is going to quietly urge Russians and the US to come to some agreement. While the PRC ideologically would probably side with Russia they prize stability, both globally and locally. A war in Ukraine at the minimum would disrupt global markets including energy which is not good for the PRC economy at a time when they are slowing down. At it's worst it leads to nuclear annihilation. While the PRC might be willing to consider two of their biggest rivals slugging it out far from their borders a good thing either the US winning or Russia winning isn't going to be good for the PRC. A US victory just might embolden the US to confront the PRC more forcefully in the South China Sea. Russia winning might also embolden them to take an aggressive stance on simmering border disputes with China.
Are there any good basketball players playing in or near Ukraine that Morey should pursue? I bet some of them would prefer working at a safer spot.
"After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence – the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next." -- Sarah Palin, October 21, 2008
Of course he's corrupt - but he's been corrupt for years. There's nothing new there. He was elected once, booted out of the Presidency due to a corrupt election, and elected again several years later despite that history. This is the 2nd revolution that he's connected to in some way. But being corrupt is not what started this this. The spark behind this current mess was centered around his decision to forgo ties to the EU and instead tie the country to Russia. Sure - but this didn't happen until many steps into the process. What started this were the decisions that he made. That led to protests, and somewhere in there, violence entered the equation from somewhere. But we really don't have any idea where that started or where it even escalated. The media reports are limited and likely do not present the full story at all. Violence begets violence, and both sides have participated in that equation. There is a lot of wrongdoing on both sides of the equation here - this isn't as simple as a peaceful protest movement that suddenly got attacked by an evil government. And as much as we like to pretend otherwise, violence isn't sanitized - it gets ugly and innocent people die. I'm not saying the ex-President is a good guy or that he didn't deserve to be overthrown based on how things unfolded. That doesn't really change the fact that it was a coup, whether justified or not. I'm saying that the situation is far more complicated than "Russia is invading the Ukraine" and people who simplify it down to that are missing what's actually happening here. Russia has legitimate interests in the region and in the outcome of this equation - the fact that they are involved should not be surprising, even if the country was led by saints instead of Putin. Understanding their motivations is key to the US and EU coming up with workable solutions.
I disagree with you here. You know who supports closer ties with Russia? The Russians living in Ukraine. True Ukrainians want freedom and democracy. Russians living in Ukraine want Russia. Yanukovich was as corrupt as it gets. Note: I lived in Ukraine.
At the end of the day, the revolution was still about corruption. You can say it started because he did not choose closer ties with Europe, but if he had chose Europe then checks and balances would be put in place from the EU and the corruption would diminish and he would be held accountable by the EU. By choosing Russia he chose continued corruption. It isn't about Russia vs Europe, it's about corruption vs non corruption.
