You realize Russia isn't exactly Cuba eh? I doubt Russia really cares about a US isolating them, nor do I think any country of import will follow suite. That's just basically asking for a second cold war and not every country in Europe wants that again. On the second point, Russia thinks the issue with the Ukraine is a domestic issue. What you're suggesting is just short of declaring war.
The complicating factor here is that's its unclear if it was an "invasion". This whole situation is difficult because the people of the country are not united in this. Half the people still like the old President. The area where Russian troops entered didn't resist - they WANT them there. The governor of that region said Ukrainian military forces there answer to him and not the new President, who really took over in a coup, given that the protesters basically ran the democratically elected President out of town because they didn't like some decisions he made. So on one side, you have a coup-led government that half the people support and the West likes. On the other side, you have the democratically elected President that half the people support and Russia likes. This is not remotely a simple situation, and Russia's not necessarily in the wrong here despite the fact that we don't like it. If the Southern half of Mexico overthrew their government and Russia was supporting it, and the Northern half supported the democratically-elected President and wanted US troops in there to help, I don't think most people would think the US was way out of line for engaging in some way.
Yeah, like the decision to mass-murder peaceful demonstrators with snipers. Rarely ever have I seen a more r****ded post.
An amusing variation of Obama derangement syndrome is watching a conservative/libertarian not knowing whether to lust for war/ juicy military deployments or lower taxes. while occasionally sobbing about deficits.
Sadly, the reality is far more complicated. Peaceful protests have been going on for months there with no/limited violence. The violence broke out recently, but it was on both sides. Protesters were launching homemade bombs at police. And police were shooting at protestors. The problem is that who actually started the violent escalation is unclear. As with Syria, Libya, and other places, there are multiple parties with differing interests involved here, and media reports are less than complete and limited to what information that the parties involved can spread, and troublemakers use legitimate peaceful protesters as cover to cause trouble. This is far more civil war than anything else - and given that half the country supports each side, it's unclear what the end-game solution will be. You've demonstrated that you like to live in a pretend world of black and white and are incapable of seeing shades of gray - unfortunately, reality is rarely that simple. The EU (and thus the US as their allies) has a vital interest here because Ukraine is on their borders. But Russia also has a vital interest here - as would we if Canada or Mexico were on the verge of a coup or civil war.
Just keep fantasizing. This is far from true. Nobody said that all the demonstrators were saints. But your disingenuous, ignorant and r****ded bullcrap about Yanukovich being a "democratically elected president who was run out of town because people didn't like some of the decisions he made" is beyond stupid. The guy embezzled unbelievable amounts of money from the people (did you see the photos of his datsha? did you read about the money his son made? do you think Switzerland froze their accounts for no reason?) and there is plenty of evidence that he was more than ready to kill even more people than he already did, by employing thugs and snipers. Tell the parents of the people murdered on the Maidan that Yanukovich was "a democratically elected president who was removed in a coup because people didn't like some of the decisions he made". Unbelievable.
ATW, I wholeheartedly support your position on this minus your personal attacks on Major, which were unneeded. I'm hoping the grey you're able to see here goes beyond the binary black and white mode you do engage on sometimes, and helps you understand my perspective on a few things. Look, I think we can all agree that some extremist elements are not going to be our friends, and that we actually hate their policies, but getting armed police/military units firing on them is to be wholeheartedly condemned---in Ukraine or elsewhere.
ATW nailed it. I agree with Major that the situation is more complicated than a simple Russian invasion of Ukraine, but the whole "democratically elected president removed because of some of his decisions" line is ridiculous. That would be appropriate if the tea party ran off Obama because of healthcare reform. It does not apply to an outright thug who used his power to murder his citizens. A "democratically elected" leader forfeits the consent of the governed when he uses his power to murder his citizens.
I agree with that part as well. The Krim is more Russian than Ukrainian. It wouldn't make sense to intervene there. The majority of the people there want to be part of Russia, rather than part of Ukraine. It's a tricky situation - what needs to be ensured is the protection of the non-Russian minorities in the Krim. Ukraine will probably fall apart, to some extent. There are other parts in Eastern Ukraine which would probably prefer to be part of Russia.
they're also beating children and forcing them to kneel for protesting. Simon Shuster @shustry Follow In pro-Russian Kharkiv today, activists for the revolution are beaten and forced to kneel: pic.twitter.com/onto628G1e via @HromadskeTV #Ukraine it's seriously very enraging material.
There is no moral high ground here. It's just power vs power and the US is no different. Remember when the FBI kept quiet about a plot to use snipers against occupy wall street? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/30/1220039/-FBI-Kept-Quiet-About-OWS-Assasination-Plot-FOIA-Obtained-Docs-Show
Just because the US government may not be up to scratch doesn't mean its' people shouldn't be fighting for ideals here or abroad. Putin is now sheltering two ACTUAL mass murderers. It's REALLY hard to see how he could get much lower, other than to start killing en masse himself.
Who the heck is "they"? The pro-Russian protestors in Kharkov who were waving Russian flags today? Come on now, these protestors came to power in Kiev through street fighting, so now when they are in a place where they are unpopular, what do you think is going to happen? Are you seriously complaining that it's an injustice because these guys were defeated by their own methods, and that they lost to other protestors?
There is a big difference between the FBI not sharing intelligence and a government actually ordering mass murders.
They're children. Do you not see the picture? The only reason why protestors in Kharkov have gotten so bold is because Russia is streaming troops in, and giving passports to murderers. Can you point to instances in Kiev where pro-Russian protesters were forced to go through the same ordeal? I believe you may have missed the parliamentary motion impeaching the former president for the use of force and bringing snipers on his own people. That's what Kiev had to deal with. Now in Kharkov, protesters for the same movement have to deal with getting beaten. Yes, this is a great injustice.
