U.S. ambassador, 3 American diplomats killed by protesters in Libya

Its hilarious how these r****ds flock to the claims made by the people they follow. All this U.S hate and religon is just an excuse for certain individuals to gain power in these countries.

 

That's what happening in about 20 countries at the same time?

what a way to be optimistic.

 

Religon is a powerful tool. It is easy to make people forget about their 3rd world problems and redirect their efforts. Religous fundamentalism and political power are more intertwined than you believe.

Also, don't be naive into thinking that 20 countries as a whole are performing these actions. Out of the millions people there are about a hundred that are participating in this stupidity. All it takes is one idiot to make everyone else look bad.

It seems that the guy who made this film got exactly what he wanted. These people behave like such savages that they can't even comprehend that. I don't think its right to meet protests with large force, except in this case. To be honest, if these people are blowing **** up its ok for the police or whoever to shoot them on the spot.

What I also don't like about this situation is the type of propaganda the guy put into his movie. He did it deliberately to envoke this sort of response. The guy that made the cartoon or w.e was well in line and muslims need to grow a pair if they are going to cry about it all day. This guy went well out of his way to insert all sorts of propaganda and exageration into a film he knew would do something like this. I feel he has some sort of moral responsibility in this case.

 

I've been in third world countries, seen it first hand.

Not judging the people that are doing the right thing, the extremists are taking advantage of the situation -as all extremists do. The reasons listed above still are not justification for their actions.

Not judging the doctrine...the facts speak for themselves.

Repped. I respect our servicemen and women, and our allies.

I was unable to serve, deemed ineligible. My best friend was accepted and is now serving in East Timor.

 

Ehh at face value when looking at verses and just recognizing war/battle verses, I can see how someone may feel that. You're entitled to your own opinion and that's perfectly fine. I just don't believe the doctrine itself is the issue, it's the extremists who aren't educated in the revelation of the Quran and act upon selected verses with no merit.

I mean, I'm not going to pretend to be able to explain everything in the Quran and the reasoning behind every single verse, but there are numerous Islamic scholars around the world (a lot in the US) who have dedicated their lives to studying the religion and they don't preach evil or violence. They act according to what they've studied about the Prophets' lives and they are some of the people with the best character out there. In fact, many Islamic scholars are converts (Caucasian/African American/Hispanic/Asian) who share the same views. They are able to explain the context of every verse and none of it is supporting injustice to others or unnecessary violence. Islam is a religion which requires studying to be put in by humans to try to interpret everything that was revealed. People with blind faith in the Quran without any background knowledge are severely flawed and that's what we're seeing today with extremists unfortunately.

 

Good post. Rep'd.

 

Pressure is on, Mathloom.

For someone who pumps out pointless essays against the ROW 24/7, you sure are good at avoiding simple questions that hold your own country accountable.

 

I understanding being careful if you intern for the United X Emirates (a dictatorship) and post from there.

But even on public connections, Big Brother is always watching.

http://www.democracychronicles.com/uae-dictatorship-urged-to-release-democracy-prisoners/

Govt article-

The only companies that provide internet/phone services are owned by the government. Nice place and all... but I wouldn't take anything a local says seriously.

 

I'm Still waiting for the reps from mathloom's 'Rep for Self-Criticism' thread...anyone else waiting for their promised rep points?

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=225822&highlight=Mathloom

Your integrity is at stake here Mr 'supervisor of 6 of th best'...any used hair gel for sale?

I don't expect an answer from Mr Mathloom. He knows the consequences of criticising Islam or Muslim practices in the Emirates.

It is what it is...Mathloom, my friend...you are still on the clock...

Tic...toc...tic...toc...tic...toc...

 

OBAMA FLASHBACK: The Day I'm Inaugurated Muslim Hostility Will Ease

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...Day-Im-Inaugurated-Muslim-Hostility-Will-Ease

ummm, not really idiot

 

This is the first time I can recall that violence in the middle east against embassies is being condemned by middle easterners across the political spectrum.

And people say Democracy doesn't work!

It was definitely not good, but I think the people are only beginning to realize that the power of protest is best achieved without violence.

 

great point. I think there was pretty wide condemnation of the Beirut attack that killed all of those Marines. But on the whole, exactly like you said, this has received a lot of outcry from middle easterners across the political spectrum.

 

I thought I would post this:



Muslim girls praying for the slain ambassador. Nice photo.

 

I would say there is a big difference between breaking a few store windows and storming an embassy. While yes there was no murder in Egypt there was a storming of the US Embassy with the same thing happening to embassies of over countries that had even less connection to this movie than the US Embassy (which is nothing.)

The idea that large protests always or even frequently become violent I don't think can be supported by facts. These protests going on storming embassies isn't something that inevitably happens in protests.

You are arguing against wallowing in victimhood by further wallowing in victimhood. I agree with you the US has ill served the Egypt and the rest of the Middle East. These are legitimate grievances the problem that I see though is that Egyptians and others seem very caught up in these grievances that it is keeping them from doing what is necessary to build a better society. This round of protests especially attacking all things Western is both a distraction and a harm to the development of these societies. First it harms diplomatic relations with countries that they will need for development aid, debt relief and trade. Two it discourages investment both forum and domestic into their economies. Burning down Hardees and KFC franchises that are likely owned, operated, and employ locals just hurts the local economy of these places than helps.

I find this very disturbing and it is the same attitude displayed among some minorities in the US against education because it makes them sound more white. Basically you are saying that most Arabs don't want to advance into modern societies with economies that are part of the the global economy because they think that means they are colonized then. If this is the attitude that most Arabs actually believe then it should be no surprise then that the Middle East is mired in poverty, corruption and vast inequality of wealth. It shows that rather than follow the model that works from everywhere from Singapore to Brazil they would rather tune out of the rest of the world. That is exactly the kind of victimized and paranoid thinking that is holding back the people of the Middle East. It is also the type of ignorant thinking that is causing so many to lash out against Western Embassies and businesses because the truth is these people don't understand how the World works.

I raised this example before with you but compare SE Asia with the Middle East. SE Asians if anything have more reason to hate the West particularly the US. SE Asia was colonized, partitioned and exploited by Western Powers and the US directly and indirectly killed millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians. The region was dominated by corrupt strongmen who were supported by the US such as Marcos and Suharto. It has seen extreme ethnic conflicts and even has its share of radical violent religious groups Islamic, Hindu and Christian. The difference is though all through SE Asia you see rapidly developing or fully developed countries, greater standards of living and movement towards democracy. Practically every country from top to bottom in SE Asia outperforms corresponding countries in the Middle East.

While there is anti-American and anti-Western feeling in SE Asia the societies there don't wallow in it and blame all of their problems on the West. Vietnamese and Indonesians very well could blame the US for all their ills for the same reasons that Iraqis and Egyptians do but they don't. They have worked themselves to be part of the global economy and now have skyscrapers and schools that you dismiss.

Also to head off those who blame Islam, Islamists or Islamic doctrine Indonesia and Malaysia are two of the most populous Islamic countries and one of the most important leaders to the development of Malaysia is an avowed Islamist. Islam clearly isn't anti-thetical towards modernity or globalization. The success of Malaysia proves that. And while yes there are still radical and violent Islamic groups in those countries, especially Indonesia, they play a far far smaller role and are more marginalized than you seen in the Middle East.

To get back on point I see these protest and your explanations of them just another example of what is wrong with the Middle East. It speaks to a lingering ignorance and victimhood that fuels paranoia and radicalization. I mean if significant portions of the population are so offended by a movie made by some crazies that has absolutely nothing to do with the US government that they will attack not only Western Embassies but western fast food franchises speaks to deep problems in those societies. At some point the people of the Middle East will have to take responsibility for themselves. The Arab Spring is a start but if as a society they return to just blaming the west this movement is going to fail like the Arab Nationalist movement of Nasser.

 

I really hope this is the case but as you can see in my response to Mathloom I think there is a long way to go.

 

Depends on what you mean by long. I see this as a 30 year process. To me that's short.

Change doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. THe Islamic world doesn't suffer from a fundamentalist problem, it suffers from an economic one.

Poor people have little to lose in storming an embassy. Rich people have a lot to loose.

Change that stance and you can put a crack in the RNC'dedense

 

Unfortunately, you are too optimistic.

 

I would agree with you that there is a difference if you are comparing a few store windows and the average embassy.

I also agree with you that not all protests inevitably end up with violence. I think large protests and I said the reason for the protests are critical, as well as the behavior of the authorities towards the protests. I think there is plenty of evidence to support this if we look into crow psychology.

I am not arguing against it, I am rejecting the label completely. The label "Wallowing in victimhood" is a fantastic way to denounce responsibility for crimes. Also, what you describe as wallowing in victimhood does not preclude anyone from developing their economy.

I think you're not getting that Egyptians perhaps don't want the "better" society you are describing. This better society would have been easier to achieve under Mubarak with a series of reforms, something he was willing to offer them. The problem now goes beyond economic development - don't forget that Egypt was among the fastest growing economies in the world when Mubarak was dumped.

From all my conversations with Egyptians, from the extreme to the liberal, they all now believe that there are a certain set of additional things which Egyptians want that were and are off the table. They have seen succesful majority Muslim countries, they've seen succesful Arab countries, they are not happy with the maximum potential. Achieving the growth is easy, and they don't want to move forward on the promise of reforms only to get screwed over for another few decades.

I'm not going to argue with you that attacking people and things based on whether they are American/Christian is stupid. I don't disagree with that. I do disagree that this is their main problem.

No, most Arabs do want to advance into modern societies and join the global economy but they want to do so indendently.

Frankly I wonder how you look at a country like Indonesia, flush with resources and a sizeable labor force but a GDP per capita, corruption index and life expectancy ranking of 100+, and determine that they are a sterling model of success. They are still paying back debt to the representatives of the "global economy" inclusive of roughly $20bn stolen by Soharto - perhaps the person who advocated the same model you're advocating stronger than anyone else. The country has extensive natural resources, including crude oil, natural gas, tin, copper, and gold. They are a people plagued with agricultural and factory jobs in the year 2012. Granted you have to build from what you have, but there are different ways to build. I'm also surprised that a country where as you said millions of people were massacred by the pro-"global economy" Soharto is the one you are pointing to as an example of how to achieve peaceful progress.

Sky scrapers and schools I did not intend to dismiss - I was simply stating that there are higher priorities.

Once again, believe me I am fully aware that following the model you propose can and usually does result in rapid improvements in the economy and standard of living in the short-term. Also, I'm not certain that what most Egyptians want is necessarily best for them in terms of economic growth. What I do know is that they don't want the model you're proposing and they have seen the most failed and the most succesful version of that model. You and I may not agree with it, but thankfully it's not our country so we need not worry about the way they develop as long as it does not affect us. If it is affecting us, as the case with these embassy attacks, then perhaps it's best we remove ourselves from them rather than dictate to them to ignore the things they have a problem with using a model that happens to benefit ourselves tremendously. Ultimately, the only thing which places 100% responsibility on a country is letting them dictate their policies on their own terms. If these are stupid, the global economy will shun them, they will suffer and then they can decide if they truly want to be a failed state or consider reforms.

Most important about your post, I think you are implying that "wallowing in victimhood" is getting in the way of them building their society. This is a fallacy, they can do both. Wallowing in victimhood, even as you describe it, is just talk. Their problem is with crime and violence, not with talk. Crime and violence will get in the way of what they want to do, and the solution to this particular brand of crime and violence is not to ignore the root problems and proceed blindly. The solution is to address these root problems from the get-go.

Ultimately, we should not care about how they achieve what they want to achieve except so far as it affects our own sovereignty and security. If they want to be ass-backwards, fine as long as that's what they want. If they want to join the global economy you describe, fine by me as long as that's what they want. If they want to become commies or socialists, who cares. As long as it doesn't affect us, that's where we should draw the line. But to sit here and patronize them about not doing things the way we think it should be done and assume that this is why they are where they are, despite them having no say in where they are, is not logical. Pointing to the obedient countries is reminiscent, again, of a parent telling a child that they should be like the straight-A student in class when this child just may not have any desire to be exactly like that. This child may want to be an artist, an actor, whatever.

It is certainly not the case that Egypt/whoever has to be Indonesia or a failed state. Conformity to the global economy did not get Egypt anywhere before, though it was succesful in the eyes of the global economy. If the same problems which plagued them before continue to plague them today, then they have no interest in achieving a shiny 5% GDP growth rate for Goldman to drool over when the majority never end up seeing the fruit of that labor. Their experience is that your model makes economic development likely, but that does not necessarily correspond to development in the overall standard of living. So call it wallowing in victimhood if you like, but that victimhood is a current issue which is being addressed and unfortunately it's being expressed in an inappropriate way by some. Does this mean they should ignore it, or does it mean they should bring those criminals to justice and continue to try to carve out a different path?

 

Still waiting for clarification...

Population...Mathloom.

Spoiler

Tic...toc...tic...toc....:grin: