Trying to understand China, the CBA and the situation with Yao Ming

Panda again you have read too much into my words! Wang Zhi Zhi stated that he went to Indianapolis to see if he could play for the NT, as while he was in USA training he had been waiting for an official of CBA/NT to call him or contact him, with the arrangements, but no call did he get. I don't wish to praise or criticise Wang, or try to interpret mind set, but this is what happened. ( At least that is what Wang Zhi Zhi said).IMHO

 

I suggest that you read various posts from Panda. I concur with Panda's assessment and argument because we have obtained same information from different sources. It was Wang ZhiZhi who cut off his contact with the CBA officials and Chinese NT not the other way around. He turned off his celluar phone and did not let anyone know his whereabout. It was not until right before the US-China exhibition games in Oakland then he showed up and wanted to join the Chinese NT.

So, please get the fact right.

 

fwang you are getting two different times mixed up!! I agree that he made himself unavailable when he was required to go back to China for NT training and Competition. He did state when it was getting close to WBC that he was awaiting to hear from the NT and that he had not heard anything and that he would take things into his own hands and go to Indianapolis to see if he was wanted for playing on the Chinese Team! Then the confrontation took place, of which we all know the result. The facts of the timeline of which I am refering have been well documented ,in the recent past, on the Clutch BBS Forum. I only have this as my source, I have no need to manipulate the facts! Of course mistakes can be made but we are not talking about the same time line!I am only comentig on just prior to the WBC.

 

michecon, i just re-read your posts and heypartner's posts, and still can't find the answers there.



1) does the CBA have free agency?
or do teams hold rights to a player indefinitely?

2) what steps can the CBA take to prevent a player from defecting? does the CBA have the ability to refuse issuing a travel permit/passport to a player intent on leaving the country?

3) If Yao retires from Shanghai, can he travel to the US and play ball, without all the restrictions and without the 50% salary appropriation?

 

Lil:- I also think it important that we get these answers bacause it will let us know exactly where we stand!

 

The contract issue is murky for the player developed within sports school system. The fledging CBA is build upon the provincial basketball system. Teams tap local talent developed by their own sports schools first. I'm not sure about the average contract length of the players. The players can ask to be "traded", and teams have limited quota as to how many players from other provinces they can introduce. The teams do need to ask for the player's agreement if they want to "transfer" him. I don't believe the rights are indefinately, but it's not "free agency" as you understand it in NBA.

Nowadays, pretty much everybody have a passport. So, it's not that relevent. Plus, it's not the passport per see that prevents a player from playing in another league. A player can leave country, but it doesn't mean he can play in another league, as HP will tell you. I suppose if CBA finds a player has unfinished obligations that warrant the delay of issuing passport, they can suggest it to the police department. But its not their decision whether or not to issue a pasport or not. If you are implying the Wang zhizhi situation, it's a totally different story. He is a current serving officer, I believe the army has the final say about his travel permit, CBA has hardly any power over it. There is little that CBA can do if a player make up his mind to defect, he can simply immigrate.

If Yao retires now, he can not immediately join NBA, not during his remaining contract length at least. Just as if Shaq retire today from LA, he can not join Rockets next season. Yao's situation might be a little more special, because so many agencies claims their help in developing him. And they did give him extra free helping at times. Ultimately, if he desires, he can retire and wait a while then join NBA. But that's not Yao Ming, and that's not a wise decision. It will certainly piss off a lot of officials and dissappoint a lot of Fans. That's Wang-fish. Finally, I'm not totaly cinvinced of the 50% thing (he does need to give back, I'm just not sure its 50% or some other deal), until I hear Yao Ming or his agent or CBA say so.

 

Does anyone know how many years is remaining on his current contract with the Sharks and CBA??? How come this is never mentioned.

 

Lil, I agree with michecon.

1. The is ambiogous. I believe the CBA is still trying to figure out how to treat player contracts. There has been one lawsuit between teams over of player that I read about.

2. This is a FIBA issue. A player is free to play anywhere he wants and the "Federations" are not supposed to interfere. However, once under contract the team owns the Player License in that Federation. The player cannot be licensed to play in two leagues at a time, and FIBA will not allow international transfer of a license until the team who owns his contract releases him.

3. There is no precedence for this, but it would not be allowed in the NBA for a player to retire and then try to switch teams prior to the contract's normal expiration date. That's what Barry Sanders tried to do in the NFL.

michecon,

For whatever its worth, the Washington Times have a quotes from Li Yaomin confirming the "Yao Rule" regarding 50% of salary.

here is is.

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20020510-75858110.htm

 

HP:
Thanks for the link. It has more quotes than I expected.

 

I think the others already covered this, but let me quickly summarize.

The question is ambiguous and poorly phrased. The CBA does not have free agency that allows a player to choose between different teams in the CBA, but there are Chinese professional basketball players who are not currently under contract to the CBA and can therefore play overseas.

Ma Jian is one past example. Wang Zhizhi appears to be one current example. Bateer does not appear to be such an example... since he has gone back and forth between the Nuggets and the Ducks, I assume he's still under contract in some way to the Ducks. Yao Ming will be one example of such a player.

Nonsensical question. What steps can the NBA take to prevent a player from defecting? None, it's not its position to do so.

Once Wang Zhizhi left China, he can most obviously apply to emigrate to the United States... as millions of other Chinese citizens have. And indeed, many of these former Chinese citizens made more than Wang Zhizhi did this past season, but the Chinese government has shown no inclination to bring them back.

No, because FIBA is the international organization that manages basketball across the globe. Unless Yao's contract with the CBA has a specific clause that allows him to unilaterally "retire" (which ends all international claims over him), then the fact that he no longer wishes to play according to the terms of the contract doesn't mean the Sharks lose FIBA claims to him.

Francis can't "retire" from Houston and play for the LA Lakers. Similar concept, just different guiding organizations (NBA for Francis, FIBA for Yao).

 

maybe i'm dumb or something, but after reading all that, i get the impression that... we simply don't know?

when, if ever, would yao ming's current contract expire with the Sharks? when, if ever, might he be able to switch teams on his own wishes?

is the answer 1) there simply isn't free agency, in the sense that after signing a player, clubs have exclusive rights to use or trade a player up until the day the club releases him? or 2) there is free agency, but most players like Yao sign super-long contracts (10+ years) and render the mechanism meaningless? or 3) there is free agency and Yao is in the Xth year of a short contract? or 4) there is free agency but only within the Chinese league. for inter-league transfers (i.e. between CBA and NBA), the CBA still has indefinite rights over its players.

which is it? or do we simply don't know. I sure as heck can't tell from the media...

i think many people mis-understand free agency here. it is simply an arrangement in which a team loses control/rights over a player after his original contract with the team expires, leaving him free to join any other team. in other countries and other sports without free agency, the original team retains exclusive control over the player. the player can only play with the consent of the team that holds his rights, even when no contract is in place. when a player negotiates a contract, he can only do so with one team (i.e. the owner), though this team can trade or lease his rights to other teams. free agency is actually a mechanism which has really only thrived in America. in european soccer for example, no such mechanisms exist, giving far more power to the teams, but also rewarding teams far more for developing long-term talent. albeit at the expense of the players.

i asked this question originally to inquire about the assertions many newspapers made that China, whether it is the CBA or Chinese govt, can prevent Yao Ming from coming to play in the USA based on a number of issues, including the Wang Zhizhi affair. This implied that they have control over travel and immigration of its people (even when they're not affiliated with the military, as in Wang's case). Is that a correct interpretation?

Or can Yao actually leave the country and travel to the US whenever he wants? I don't think it is just a basketball or FIBA issue. But then I might have worded my question inadequately.

Futhermore, besides travel, Heypartner said that FIBA rules prevent playing in two leagues simultaneously. I've got 2 questions about it.

1) Does that mean that FIBA restrictions are actually enforced in the NBA? These rules are significant to the Chinese because they desire Yao to compete internationally. But to the Rockets, these restrictions and penalties are meaningless, since we don't need him to play in any FIBA-regulated events, no?

2) How does FIBA reconcile inter-league differences in free agency rules? because it seems that this rule would benefit teams in leagues without free agency more than those who operate with free agency, since players can escape the control of their original teams on their own in the latter case

yeah. i understand the part about transfer and contract rights within the NBA. But isn't the issue here inter-league transfer and not intra-league. And if there are no precedents for defection as a means of inter-league transfer in the NBA, does that mean that it is all a matter of negotiation? I think China is officially sanctioned by FIBA, so its jurisdiction and protection definitely extends to Chinese teams. So would this defection would probably mean leaving the FIBA system altogether???

In other words, even without free agency in the CBA, even without CBA and FIBA approval, can a player just quit and leave China to play in the NBA? What's there to stop him?

And will we have to do this (negotiate with the CBA or face defection) every time with Chinese player transfers in the future?

Just trying to sort out my thoughts and to find out where we stand with respect to Yao's contract... I mean, it seems to be rather chaotic out there, without rules or precedent to guide these negotiations... The boundaries of the negotiation so far all seem to originate from the individual leagues in question (CBA, NBA)...

 

Lil, I think I mixed up #2 with another question. anyhow, heech explains all 3 questions well.

For your follow-ups, just listen for a second. You asked: <i>for inter-league transfers (i.e. between CBA and NBA), the CBA still has indefinite rights over its players. </i> No. Once the CBA releases Yao, they NEVER can reclaim him without the NBA releasing him or Ming becoming a free-agent and going back on his own. Don't even try to look for a loop-hole in that. The National Team is a different story. The FIBA rules detail exactly when a NT can recall a player and for how long and for what tournaments.

If Yao has a 10yr contract with the Sharks, but the Sharks release him to a Rockets buyout, he is gone just like Pau Gasol and Tsiki. Think about it, Pau and Tsike and Hilario and Yao would not be selected that high, if that weren't the case. Also, by my calculations the Sharks have negotiated a $3.5-4m buyout with the Rockets over the course of Yao rookie contract. They are ready to release him completely; that is what we signed with the Sharks.

All that is left is the formality of the CBA giving FIBA the formal release. That is what is being delayed, and there is no reason to delay that except for hard bargaining over NBA TV rights in China. Nothing else makes sense, since the FIBA release is simply a formality.

<blockquote>In other words, even without free agency in the CBA, even without CBA and FIBA approval, can a player just quit and leave China to play in the NBA? What's there to stop him?

And will we have to do this (negotiate with the CBA or face defection) every time with Chinese player transfers in the future?</blockquote>I like heech's explanation of this. I don't think defection have anything to do with FIBA, the NBA, or the CBA...they will still operate under there existing rules. The rules are that if a CBA team owns the FIBA Player License, the player cannot play in the NBA. You just cannot consider "defection" a loophole. It has nothing to do with basketball.

 

fwang,

This is somewhat an issue of semantics. The Rockets can pay $350K directly with no Salary Cap issues. The Rockets can also pay 25% of Yao's salary directly to an international team as a buy-out....however, this larger payment *does* count against the Cap equivalent to how a veteran signing bonus counts. This is not a "signing bonus" though, as rookies aren't allowed them. This is a buyout payment from team to team. Since Yao is capped on a rookie scale and the buyout counts against his max, this means Yao has to take less than his maximum salary to offset the buyout. The money never goes to Yao, so it is never taxed in the US, but it counts against what Yao could have otherwise made. In effect, it is out-of-pocket, but no really.

The main difference is that the Sharks can sign a contract with the Rockets that guarantees that Les Alexander will pay them $3.5-4m directly to them.

I know for a fact this is what Pau Gasol did. So there is no reason to believe the Sharks didn't ask for the same, in all the reports where they negotiated compensation. Besides, the numbers for Yao's salary are not maximum numbers. I assume Jonathan Feigen is reporting only Yao's portion and not the buyout portion.

 

I still do not understand. I do not think Rockets will pay Sharks "DIRECTLY" though. I think it is more likely that Yao Ming will collect the paycheck in full, and cut $1 MM each year to Sharks during the first 3 years he is employed by Rockets. That "no-tax" clause surely is helpful.

BTW, all the Chinese media now reports that Yao Ming will be paid between $15 - 16 MM a year which is the max for the 2002 No. 1 pick.

 

<blockquote><i>originally posted by fwang</i>

This is an interesting hypothesis which is based on the assumption that CBA has control of NBA TV rights in China. </blockquote>fwang,

I swear, sometimes you just disagree to disagree.

My "hypothesis" about TV has nothing to do with CBA ownership in China. Where did I said that. I said China (whoever) has to negotiate with Stern and the NBA owners to broadcast games, just like NBC did here. Shanghai TV is state run. Are you trying to say that the state can't tell the CBA not to release Yao until these TV rights are finished. Of course they can. or, yeah, I guess this all could be delayed because China wants Wang to play for the national team. You guys are naive to think Wang is the issue here versus negotiating those TV rights.

 

I am not prepared to call you naive but I think there are a lot of things you simply do not know.

Take Shanghai TV as an example. Shanghai OTV is majority-owned by Shanghai Government but minority-owned by individual stakeholders (you and me if we had bought any of its stock shared listed in Shanghai Stock Exchange).

In your previous message, you claimed that the reason Yao Ming's contract is delayed is because CBA is using him as a bargaining chip with NBA on NBA TV rights. I am telling you that is wrong. Since CBA does not hold any NBA TV rights in China (the TV stations independently do), what does CBA hold Yao for? It is obviously not about TV rights. Most reports have pointed to Wang.

 

<blockquote>Originally posted by fwang
I still do not understand. I do not think Rockets will pay Sharks "DIRECTLY" though. I think it is more likely that Yao Ming will collect the paycheck in full, and cut $1 MM each year to Sharks during the first 3 years he is employed by Rockets. That "no-tax" clause surely is helpful.</blockquote>This is not the way Pau Gasol did it. You are disagreeing just to disagree. It is ridiculous to take the money as a paycheck after taxes and then pay his Spanish team. It is also ridiculous for the Spanish team to trust Pau to pay them over an NBA owner who they can sign a contract with. The wouldn't do that with Pau, they'd make him take out a loan and pay in full. That is riduculous for him to do it that way when the team can pay it for him before taxes.

The Sharks signed a compensation contract with the Rockets. We don't know the full details, but what we do know for a fact is that the Sharks can get in writing from Les Alexander a guarantee for $3.5-4m in payment.

<blockquote>BTW, all the Chinese media now reports that Yao Ming will be paid between $15 - 16 MM a year which is the max for the 2002 No. 1 pick.</blockquote>fwang, trust me on this. This is fact. Those are incorrect numbers regarding Yao maximum possible take home pay, and it is coming from Jonathan Feigen numbers in the Chronicle. Feigen is not reporting the maximum amount that Yao can get. He likely is reporting what Yao is taking home, because the rest is being used as a buyout.

Here's the way it works:

Yao maximum first year is:
<b>Year #1 = $3,858,240</b>

Yao is allowed 10% simple interest raises not to exceed 120% of his slotted pay per yr for this:
<b>Year #2 = $4,147,560</b>
<b>Year #3 = $4,436,880</b>

For the first 3yrs guaranteed he can max at = <b>$12,442,680</b>

Has you can see, that is nowhere close to $15-16m, thus we know they are including the 4yr team option. The 4th year is a mandatory 26.1% raise over the previous year for a #1 pick. Thus,

Year #4 = $5,594,905

4 Year Total = <b>$18,037,585</b>

The numbers of maximum salaries as I show them is fact, in the Collective Bargaining Agreement document that is downloadable to anyone. $15-16 for 4yrs is not correct. It is also way off for the 3 guaranted years.

<b>Kenyon Martin</b> is making $16,534,449 over 4yrs (more than reported for Yao.

<b>Kwama Brown</b> is making $17,286,153 over 4yrs (more than reported for Yao.

The difference is the buyout being giving directly to the Sharks and whoever asks negotiated for it. The Rockets are allowed to pay that to anyone.

 

Thanks. I understand the mathematics now and that is very helpful. I guess that complicated forumula had never been reported.