Trying to understand China, the CBA and the situation with Yao Ming

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What I know is from a few articles interviewing the head of the CBA, the owners and some words from the Li Yaomin and the general managers. I have read about the economics of the CBA and their close ties to television (Daniel Chiang is very similary to Ted Turner and Rupert Murdock and sports). From my work, I actually have followed the SINA.com and done a report on them for my CEO. I know the history of Shanghai TV somewhat, as well. I also know the history of the NBA and how it was organized by stadium owners around finding something to do with their stadium. It sounds to me like the CBA is having a similar start as the NBA did. There are a lot of similarities.

I've posted links to all these things in the first week after the lottery. I don't really want to do it again, but maybe someone can find those posts.

Yes, the CBA is government run, but no, it is not important to the govt. What I always like to point out is Wang ZhiZhi was on a plane to Dallas for his first game when the Spy plane incident was unraveling...we had "hostages" in China at that time. BBall is not that big of a deal to their govt. The head of the CBA is a bored man, who is just doing his job. He has said that he doesn't really like his job. He has also said that the owners are not very good, and they are trying to get better business men involved.

For Q3: there is no draft that I've read about. In fact, rights to players is so confusing that there was a lawsuit over a player's rights. If memory serve, this was an unprecedented lawsuit, and the CBA is trying to figure out a better way of dealing with player rights. The CBA wants to be commercially profitable, and the head of the CBA's job is to make it such. Obviously, big bucks aren't moving in when player status is argued.

My gut instinct, and please no one try to ask me to prove it,,, my gut instinct is this is a money battle between the NBA and so other power in Beijing that oversees the CBA. It just makes no sense to me that this is a Wang thing where the feel it necessary to withhold Ming's release.

What is fact is that once they give us that release, they can NEVER pull Ming back to play in the CBA. That is the rules of FIBA. They can pull him back for National Team tourny's, but there really aren't that many of them...this year is not common. Also, I don't think they care as much about national pride in basketball in the world championship as other sports in their country. The CBA is a fledgeling sport compared to others in China. I believe they view it more from a very healthy Market/Profit standpoint than Wang embarrassing their National Pride. That just doesn't make sense.

Wang vs Profit

Wang doesn't make sense because they cannot achieve anything concerning added assurances about Ming's availability by holding Ming hostage except embarrassing Wang. FIBA already provides all those assurances, and FIBA does not allow Ming to ever play in the CBA federation again while he's an NBA player. There is nothing for China to accomplish concerning Yao's availability to the National Team or the CBA. Do they really care that much about Wang, to use Yao to embarrass him? Is he important, or is he an excuse to cover up delays caused from other backroom dealings.

What China *can achieve* by withholding Ming is negotiating a better TV deal with the NBA. Like I say, some CBA owners are media moguls. That is why they bought a team. That is what they do.

imo, they are staring down Stern, because this is their best and last chance to do it...and Stern has gone public calling their bluff, back in May or so.

 

Hi heypartner.

I cannot agree to your suspicion more as referred to my previous post. I also believe money is an issue here. But, as indicated in my previous post. Our North American leagues tend to underpay the leagues or teams of other countries for their players. So, you make the call.

 

<blockQUOTE>Originally posted by yin
But as contrary, he said in June, Wang can play for any team even without China's permission. In a word, Wang destroy Yao's dream and the dream of a lot of other players. I think Rocket can try to Push Stern if they can, but I don't think Rocket can.</blockQUOTE> That was an outstanding post. Thx for taking the time to share your knowledge with us. It was very informative. I had no idea there was such thing as a "Sports School."

I would like to discuss what I quoted from you. This is not really a Stern issue. This is an issue with the organization that opposes Stern--The NBA Player's Union. Stern is bound by rules that all owners agreed to with the Player's Union. The Union has power over Stern equivalent to the power the team owners have over Stern.

What Stern is telling China is that he cannot bargain with them outside the existing rules, and he won't change them for your precious rare Pandas. He can't. His hands are tied.

The Sharks understood that within 2 or 3 meetings with the Rocket's lawyer and Rudy. I'm pretty confident there is quotes from the Rockets after these meetings stating that the Sharks actually didn't know our rules at first, and pulled most of their demands once they realized the Player's Union had a formal agreement with the Owners. I cannot believe the CBA does not understand that. Something else is going on.

 

wow acrophobia...sorry, I didn't see your post before posting mine. I would have quoted you more. I agree completely.

<blockquote>Originally posted by Panda

China is now putting Yao and the Rockets in a difficult spot to seek further assurance from the NBA.

Is that clear?</blockquote> I really think this idea of yours Panda is about as naive as it gets. Neither the Rockets nor Stern have power to give Yao or China assurances. What you Chinese fans are not comprehending is this league is not run by one person. This league is controlled by owners and the NBA Player's Union.

There is a 200 page contract between the Players and the Owners. Stern is merely a figurehead. He really has very limited powers over changing rules. He can change the Rules of the game regarding zones and 3pt lenght and what constitutes a foul...but he form a commission for that. He has ZERO power to change the rules of player rights and punishing players and teams. That is all locked up in the 200-page contract.

The Rockets told the Sharks that and the Sharks dropped several demands. I cannot believe there is ongoing ignorance of the rules that define the Player's Union as powerful as the Owner's Collective, and define that Yao cannot and will not be treated differently.

Something else is going on...and it isn't about basketball.

 

hey Michecon:

you are critical of every thought in this thread. you also slam anyone speculating. Newsflash Chief: all we have is speculations on this board because most do not really know and this is what makes the board work. We are armchair coaches, GMs and world leaders. Feel free to accept the BBS for what it is.

Also, If you notice, this thread started with some thoughts about Basketball and understandings how China's political and social systems work in tangent with the sports systems. Many of the responses, including mine, were concerning the political and social climate that some are trying to attribute to Ming's unsigned status. So, technically, you are way out of bounds if you think this has more to do with the CBA framework than the political climate and social structure in China. Understanding the background will help you understand the CBA and interworkings. As stated before, we think business is just slamming a contract down and signing it. That is not the way it works in the real world and, especially, outside the U.S.

Also, it should be underscored that right now, there are at least 10 unsigned first round picks from the draft. Ming is just one of a bunch....

 

Sorry, Montgo, are you talking to me? Are you telling me YOUR speculation can help ME understand better how China's social structure and CBA works? I don't really understand.

Crash start out to seek some facts. I have no problem with speculation, I do a lot myself, but I do appreciate people not state speculation as facts in this thread.

Since I don't really understand what you are trying to say, my response would be: WHATEVER.

 

heypartner:- I like what you have been saying! I wonder what you think of the following, in respect to CBA and release of Yao Ming. Chinese sometimes are a little slow at first, when it comes to thinking like a Westerner or dealing with a Western Businessman, but once they get the gist of what they are dealing with their intelligence kicks in and they grasp the basics.From this assumption, don't you think by now that all concerned in China, know for sure that David Stern and Les Alexander are limited by Laws,Rules and Regulations and can't be maniputated, or make under the counter arrangements? If this is the case and Wang Zhi Zhi is not realy a stumbling block, like so many think. Don't you believe that its a case of we know we have to let him go, but it will be at our convenience(CBA) not yours. If this is the case then its just old fashioned machismo rearing its ugly head and we just need to be patient,like prior to the Draft?

 

In your posts you have put the importance of Wang's NT service as having little actual bearing on this situation, and I don't agree with that.

China's basketball officials who regulates the CBA are responsible for promoting the basketball level in China. How do you gauge their performance? One standard is the prosperity of CBA, another is how China fares in major world competition such as WBC, and most important of all, Olympics. Wang's not attending NT is not acceptable, his absence not only decimated China's standing in the WBC, but his refusal to play also pose threat to China's winning the Asian tournament, another Olympics qualifier along with WBC. Although Yao and Bateer will ensure China winning the Asian games this time. A dilemma exists, if Wang can refuse to play for the NT, using his NBA career as a reason, then why can't Yao and Batter and other future Chinese NBA prospects do the same in the future? Absence of the eilte players will be absolutely disastrous to China's world competition record, which is related to those officials "scorebook" and achievement evaluation. It's this chain effect that Wang brings, I suspect, making some officials want to ensure NT attendance, from their limited options. One is to temporarily withholding Yao and explore possiblities.

Whether technically Stern or teams can help out China is one thing, whether China is *seeking and exploring possiblities* of such help by withholding Yao as a last chip is another. I don't sweat over Yao's Rockets future, I just hope Yao can sign as soon as possible.

 

Hi Panda.

Please forgive me for my ignorance in the Chinese NT circle; and I might have overlooked your insight into this matter in your previous posts.

Could you enlighten me why the NT did not let WANG play in the Indiana WBC even though WANG reportedly wanted to join the NT since the exhibition game in Vancouver? If WANG's situation is so important to CBA, the NT should welcome him then. And everything should have been resolved in Indiana.

 

The answer:- When Wang Zhi Zhi reported to the NT for the World Champs,he was not allowed to play because the CBA/NT Officials placed additional conditions on Wang Zhi Zhi playing in the WBC. These conditions were, from what I can remember, that he go home to China for further NT training in preparation for the Asian Championships, also that he would have to sign/be in agreement with the new CBA Contract for Chinese players playing in USA. (Give back a high percentage of earnings to CBA). Wang Zhi Zhi could not agree to all of these, because he thaught he would have NBA preseason commitments. He was not allowed to play. NB. Wang zhi zhi was not even invited or called to participate for China in the WBC.

 

Sorry Yetti, but you seem to be a little off on this one. Wang is repeated requestedly by CBA/China Basketball to play for China in the WBC. He first refused to practice with NT for the WBC, which is corrosive to team morale and chemistry (think about those NT teammates who felt degraded by Wang's comments), instead he used that time to play in the summer league. Then he said he'll meet NT in USA for the WBC. He did, but his appearance, after his hideout and cutting off communication from outside(including with the Mavs), was just before WBC, and obviously not good for team chemistry. Furthermore, he had an additional condition to play in WBC, which is to not to participate in the Asian games, as he wants to take part in the NBA training camp. However, Asian games were part of the agreement he made with the CBA for his release. He tried to bargain out of his own agreement to play for the NT, and that's why he's rejected. About signing a new CBA contract after his returning in China, sorry, CBA has no power to force Wang to sign any agreement even he's in China. CBA is just for basketball, CBA is no KGB.

I'm not trying to make Wang out to be a bad guy, I'm just saying what I know. I was one of Wang's admirers before this incident, not anymore. I'm very disappointed in his decision - as well as his maturity level. I suspect he has some bad influence from his agent Simon Chan - think of him as David Falk if you know what I mean. Hopefully he can change his mind and come back to the arms of so many Chinese basketball fans who once supported him whole heartedly.

 

It's Ok acro, no harm done here and no need to apologize. Interesting moniker BTW.

My take on the situation isn't insightful if one knows the basic pieces and info involved in this situation. I guess outsiders to China isn't well versed with the behaviour pattern of the Chinese officials. They always want something to fall back on, just like other people in the world, in case of something goes wrong. In this case I think they just want to temporarily withhold Yao as a stance, so if something goes wrong in the future they can always say "We did the best we could to prevent it from happening". It's more of a stance/gesture thing to me. Not to breach international agreement with the Rockets and ruin CBA's future ties with NBA is far more serious and important than seeking for Wang's punishment. No real threat to Yao's release. Of course, since I'm not in that specific circle I might not be aware of some other factors, like what haypatner has pointed out. Let's just be patient and see what comes out.

 

Ok. The CBA is trying to do the best they can and I accept that. They are also trying to gain leverage with the NBA? Honestly, really? Does anyone in China realize the NBA can't do a damn thing regarding Wang Zhi Zhi or Yao Ming? They can't and you can't convince me the Chinese government doesn't know that. They may shake their heads in wonder, but our government really can't pull major strings in the light of day and Yao Ming is big news to begin with. China and the U.S. have been dealing with each other in increasing numbers since 1992. To suggest that the Chinese government doesn't understand our limitations as a democracy is ludicrous. If anyone believes the Chinese government didn't understand what could happen when Wang Zhi Zhi became the first Chinese player in the NBA then you're just naieve. That Wang Zhi Zhi defied them is a problem and maximum political spin is necessary. Buy it in huge gulps if you must. Yao Ming, by all accounts just, wants to play basketball. If the Chinese government wants the NBA to do anything for them they may as well rescend all their agreements regarding Yao Ming. The only way the Chinese government can enpower the NBA to do anything is to withhold Yao Ming and then Stern, NBA owners and the player's union will rubber-stamp a morotorium against drafting a Chinese player. That's what could only happen when a #1 overall gets lost in a multibillion dollar industry. It's different now and the Chinese goverment knows it. That they can delay Yao Ming's signing is a remnant of authorithy they don't have on U. S. soil. They just want it back home, to possibly win in their own court of public opinion. If Yao Ming never plays in Houston, I feel badly for everyone. It may be conceiveable that China is in the top 10 international teams in the world, but right now hoop-heads are thinking you may not be able to beat the 3th place European of South American non-qualifier. And since it's not about talent, what is it about? Well, keep your eye on the ball.

 

Actually it's the Shanghai Sharks GM Li Yaoming who said "Yao is probably not signing yet until the end of october, because of Wang Zhizhi." in Windandsea's article. That article also claims Yao's signing is tied with Wang missing in the WBC. So if it's naive to suggest that China is withholding Yao for the Wang situation, it's the CBA personel. This reflects that they may not be familiar with NBA rules. They might think there's things NBA can do in this regard. Or they need time to study NBA in details. Or they are using Wang as an excuse to hold Yao up for other purpose, who knows? It's the perception of CBA personel that matters here. It's premature to exclude any possibilities as of now as we just don't know much.

 

Can Steve Francis sign a contract, tomorrow, with the LA Lakers?

No. Does he have 100% "free will"?

 

Yikes Lil, not only do you know nothing about China, you know very little about the United States as well...

... rub your eyes and start following the NBA a little more closely. While it's true that a NBA player can choose to "give up their contract" at any time, it is certainly NOT true that they then have the freedom to sign a new contract with another team. Their rights in the league are still owned by the original team.

If Steve Francis becomes annoyed at the situation in Houston, he can not just choose to sign a contract to play in China. The Rockets would have some recourse through international basketball organizations to stopping him (or at least seeking compensation).

And if your only point was that a NBA player can choose to stop playing basketball at any time... well, I'm happy to inform you that you can put away your freedom-fighter uniform, Chinese basketball players have the same right. Yao Ming has, reportedly, threatened to quit before if he's not allowed to play in the NBA.

 

"Put away the freedom fighter uniform". Great expression hehe.

 

A couple of quick questions for anyone:

1) does the CBA have free agency?
or do teams hold rights to a player indefinitely?

2) what steps can the CBA take to prevent a player from defecting? does the CBA have the ability to refuse issuing a travel permit/passport to a player intent on leaving the country?

3) If Yao retires from Shanghai, can he travel to the US and play ball, without all the restrictions and without the 50% salary appropriation?


Heech, Panda, I've replied to you in the other thread. It will likely be the last time I deal with your posts.

 

1) does the CBA have free agency?
or do teams hold rights to a player indefinitely?

See my earlier post in answering crash's question

2) what steps can the CBA take to prevent a player from defecting? does the CBA have the ability to refuse issuing a travel permit/passport to a player intent on leaving the country?

Passport is issued by Police Department for a civilian. Army has control over if a travel permit can be issued.

3) If Yao retires from Shanghai, can he travel to the US and play ball, without all the restrictions and without the 50% salary appropriation?

See HP's various posts