Trying to understand China, the CBA and the situation with Yao Ming

Why can't somebody stick to the title and intention of the thread? If you have nothing to offer about China's sport system, please argue elsewhere.

 

Yin,

I and alot of other Rock fans want to thank you for your insite into the workings of China ...and I want you to know I see you have Pride in your Country as we do in ours ...and that a Real good thing to have ...I want you to know we are very greatfull to have you here in the BBS

Just like we are thankfull to have Yao on our team ....

 

Could someone please explain this to me like I'm an idiot....I was moving/painting when this story came out, and I have yet to fully catch up. As I understand it, there is a story going round that due to Wang's possible betrayal/change of heart(!?!) re: military service and the obligations which accompany that, the Chinese (govt. or CBA!!?!?) have delayed allowing Yao's signing with the Rockets, as either a means to pressure Wang/the NBA, or out of fear that Ming will do the same thing.

1) Am I right so far?
2) Is this supposition/rumour, or is there evidence for this?
3) Can you clarify my confusion re the specifics even if I've got the general picture?
4) What is the expected outcome? Is there really a serious chance we won't get Yao, or is it just a matter that we'll get him, but have to wait a bit?

Thanks in advance...

JAG

 

1) Am I right so far?
not far off

2) Is this supposition/rumour, or is there evidence for this?

Yao hasn't sign and not likely to be sign before Oct. Fact.
Rest, rumor or evident based on your perspective.


3) Can you clarify my confusion re the specifics even if I've got the general picture?

Read more posts



4) What is the expected outcome? Is there really a serious chance we won't get Yao, or is it just a matter that we'll get him, but have to wait a bit? JAG

Don't worry, Yao will be here before season starts.

 

the title of the thread asked about the situation with yao ming.

and the fact of the matter of is:

the CBA does not have to be this difficult. there are other ways to encourage Yao to play on future Chinese teams. their practices in no way mean that they have a right to trade Yao like cattle or force the nba/rockets into any arrangement.

but they insist on making life difficult for everyone by insisting on contractual demands and guarantees which border on impossibility.

the link between china/cba, and the Yao Ming situation is this:

the former want to benefit as much as possible from yao ming, at the expense of the rockets and the nba. they rode wang throughout the last decade. now they want to ride Yao as long as possible in the foreseeable future. their interests inevitably clash with those of the rockets.

to understand the CBA, directly leads to the conclusion that they represent opposing interests and radically different perceptions about how to treat players, from the rockets organisation and nba.

how is stating these opinions irrelevant again? after reading previous posts on the chinese system, i wish even more than ever for Yao to get out of the clutches of the CBA.

 

quote:
I think many of us including myself tend to make comments about the CBA with out having a good working knowledge of it. I am hoping that HP and some of our Chinese friends will chime in and help us (me in particular) understand the CBA and FIBA a lot better. So here are my questions.

.......


I know if I had the answer too these questions it would allow me to comment more intelligently about the situation. So any Chinese citizen or anyone else with the answers to those questions please chime in but please no speculative answers. Thanks.



unquote

 

the nba has dealt with players from countries like china before.
we've got players from russia (sabonis) and yugoslavia (divac) and frankly i don't recall at any time the nba being asked to make such assurances.

it's kinda like fidel castro asking the yankees to ensure that el duque will be available to pitch for cuba in the olympics. just absurd. steinbrenner would hang up on him faster than he would osama bin laden.

 

Montgo:
Thank you very much. I'm just depicting what I experienced in China so that posters here can have an relatively up to date idea on China's status quo to base their opinions on. Hopefully Americans like you who are openminded enough to acknowledge the improvement of China keeps increasing and two countries, China and USA, can always coexist in harmony.

And how do you know Yao Ming cannot just refuse to play in CBA?
There's poster said that Yao will retire if he's not allowed to go. How do you respond to that? How do you know that Yao cannot choose to join or leave the league? Did you read Yao's contract with CBA or you are just speaking out of your speculation?

Does forfeiting a contract means a team losing rights to a player? The Rockets owns Yao's NBA rights now without a contract. They are different things.

Rights and contract are not the same concept, one player can refuse to play and void his contract, but in the league other teams can't hire him without his former club's giving up rights to him.

About negotiating the contract to his advantage, yes Yao can't and there's nothing wrong with it, when it comes to international player rights transfer, one is left alone at the mercy of his team. This is common everywhere. If Francis wants to play in Spain and ask the Rockets to transfer his rights, the Rockets can demand any conditions they deem apt to Francis or the Spain league without any moral or legal flaw. Francis can either take it or leave it.

It's the rights for other teams or league to hire one's service we are talking about here, it's an asset for a team. The team can do whatever it likes to those rights as long as they have it, it's an asset of the team and not players'!

Ergh... I can't believe this.
[/QUOTE]
i've never issued a personal attack against you. but if you really want my opinion about your methods, then it is this:
i'm disgusted with the way you handle yourself on this BBS. you readily mix personal attacks with insensitive political ranting. i don't care to paint you black. i just care for what is right and just. i readily concede my faults, i readily praise good posts even when they differ from my beliefs. you are like a brick wall. if anything is remotely different from your beliefs, you aggressively cast them aside and deride as "ignorant misinformation" or "malicious politically-motivated lies", almost like a caged and cornered animal. there is no conversation or discussion here. because it takes two pairs of listening ears to have one. there is only pride, fear and hatred.

there is an old chinese saying which says "when the scholar meets the soldier, reason cannot be expressed". please learn to be more the scholar, more the listener... and you'll find interactions on this BBS a whole lot more pleasant.
[/QUOTE]

Oh great, if you think I'm a thick wall why do you bother to argue with me. As for my ranting, I have different ways of treating people, those who have my respect will never hear a bad word from me, on the other side ....

Since you are sick of my method, I'll tell you honestly I'm sick your way of self elevation above other Chinese posters who differs from you view. Such as telling them to read American constitution to understand why others don't agree with them, the implication of your claming superior understanding to basic human rights and natural hintings that those Chinese who argue against you are ignorant of such rights is shallow, baseless, cowardice and offensive. Unless you know how to argue on fair ground there's no point in discussion since you only agree with those who cites bill of rights no matter what they say.

 

Yao can retire from CBA. He said it himself that he would retire if he can not join NBA. And you suppose Erik Zhang works for CBA?

Stop it. I'm really tired of all the speculation BS. I will quote this again: quoteI know if I had the answer too these questions it would allow me to comment more intelligently about the situation. So any Chinese citizen or anyone else with the answers to those questions please chime in but please no speculative answers. Thanks. unquote. Please respect thread openers good intention.


BTW, from a contract theory point of view, there is no pre-existed "right". CBA has as much "right" as NBA. It's all bargain and contract and convention. Just like, there is n opre-exited "right" that says I have to forfeit my "right" of smoking. Your right of "not having to inhale second hand smoking" isn't bigger than my right of "I can smoke as I want". I accept the convention of not smoking in public because the non-smoker have more bargaining power, and I accept this contract/convention for my own good in the society.

 

China is making things hard to assure their key players can play in the Olympics qualifier games. That's the key in this situation. China was all set to release Yao, Wang Zhizhi put China into a difficult spot by casting clouds on such NT service assurance. China is now putting Yao and the Rockets in a difficult spot to seek further assurance from the NBA.

Is that clear?

 

I hate to deviate from the original topics of this thread, but I should share my experience when I was a child in Hong Kong, which was under the British rule.

It was more like China of today. We thought we had total freedom because we acted in sport, in economy, and many other things almost at our will. Who cared about politics. The only low level (county) general election attracted less than 20% or sometimes less than 10% of the population. We thought we have complete democracy; and very few people were unhappy because the economy was blooming every year. Yes, corruption was bad; but it affected only some people and most people were used to that anyway.

Only after I have lived here for a while, I realize back then I had no (political) democracy at all. Does it mean everything is better in the Western world? Not necessary. Is that in China better? Not necessary. They are totally different systems and cultures. It depends on the individual and his background which system fits him/her better. Many Chinese has strong desire to migrate to the Western world. At the same time, many (in some cases, a vast majority of) Chinese go back to China (or Hong Kong) after their immigration to the Western world as they are not happy with the new system. (Obviously, I like what I have seen here and chosen to stay.)

The same will likely work for athletes. Some stay (not representing their countries of origin any more) and some want to return (particularly when they are not signed). It is a fact of life both worlds including government organizations need to and will recognize one day.

As to the economic benefits and rights of the organizations that own the athlete at different time, it should be a matter of negotiation. North Amercian sport (NBA, NHL, MLB and NFL) is almost unique in the world that we pay very little to acquire an international player. Other worldwide sport such as soccer (English football), the new club has to reach agreement with the previous club, which can be in another country, and pay a lofty amount to acquire an international player.

In fact, we have double standards here. We need to trade for a player if he comes from another local team because we recognize that the local team owns his right. But we do not give a fair market value to the international team that owns the right of the international player. We have to recognize that European and Chinese leagues are not College leagues; they are run just like NBA, although at a lower level. If we feel their player is good enough to play, should it be like Soceer. For example, several English soccer (football) teams paid millions to borrow several players from Chinese football clubs this year to play one year in the English league.

You know, our Western culture, North America in particular, is fairly self-centred and favours material richness. As a result, the widening gap between the rich and the poor (countries) may be perceived by other part of the world as being (quoted from the recent 911 speech of the Canadian Prime Minister) arrogance and greed of the rich. To bridge such gap, communication and negotiation are importatnt.

 

Lil,

You're quickly running out of already limited respect from me. Wasn't it you who made the above statement, at 4:16 this morning, in the polular "Yao Ming's contract with Rockets is delayed" thread? Maybe your definition of "bashing" is different from mine, or am I missing something here? It's not about how correct/incorrect your statements are on all those hefty issues such as human rights, free will, and democracy; it's about honoring one's promises, in this particular case still too fresh to be overlooked.

Panda might be a vocal person. Heck, he sometimes may even get a little too emotional when defending China or himself, etc. But he never claims or "skillfully" implies, as you sometimes do, moral high grounds over other posters. And above all, he is a straightforward person. When he sees something he likes or dislikes, he speaks out his opinion directly. Whereas you sometimes just seem to be TOO "smart" for your own sake. If that's the quality of your educational (professional?) training, too bad.

 

Super Kev: You only know what you have been indoctrinated by your Teachers and Society in this Country. Its just the same in China.Each Society wants its people to conform, within certain limitations of its ideal of what Society should be. Thats why we have rules, expectations and laws to control our citizens. We as they in China have free will to accept or reject. Both here & in China we face the concequences of our free will rejecting the limitations forced upon us by our Society.Realising this is one step closer to understanding!

 

axmpo and the rest of the chinese posters,

saying some people and organisations can be different, is different from saying that they are not capable of being different. that is the difference between lamenting and bashing, between hoping and hating. look at my posts before and after that comment. i removed the negativity, but the anger and dissatisfaction remains.

i decided this morning to take a constructive approach to this problem. apparently, the effort has fallen on deaf ears.

why do i claim a moral high ground? i don't do it because i feel intellectual or spiritual superior (even though believe me i sure as hell am qualified to do so). i do it because damn it, this issue has a right and a wrong. why do YOU stand by and do nothing, when things can be better. are you satisfied? are you happy with the way things are with Yao? and if i seem biased to you in favour of the rockets and the nba, maybe you ought to look at the name of this bulletin board.

 

IMHO everone of us Rox fans should just be silent and not critical of China or the CBA at this time. This might be the only thing we can do to help get Yao Ming here and that should be our first priority. When he is signed and gets here then it might be efective to criticise and suggest our views.
Protesting now can only agrivate and antagonise the powers in China that can say YAY or NAY. Let's use our heads for a change and take the positive high road and acheive our goal!

 

agreed.

i will not be silent when people falsely claim that i have no right or knowledge to criticise what is wrong. i will not be silent when others tell me to keep my opinions to myself and to be satisfied with the way things are, when things are obviously awry. i will not stand by and watch people who are right being ridiculed and insulted by those less worthy.

but i will be silent for the sake of the rockets. the powers that be had better let yao sign soon.

 

axmpo, please refer to my reply in the other thread from this morning and accept my apologies.

go rockets!
go yao ming!

 

Lil:- I wasn't saying that we should not speak out against what we think is wrong!!! jUST THAT WE COULD BE MORE DIPLOMATIC AND WISE BY BEING MORE EFFECTIVE AND TO OUR ADVANTAGE BY WAITING TILL WE GET YAO MING!!! THATS ALL!!YOU READ SOMETHING INTO MY POST THAT WASN'T THERE!!! I encourage all to speak out but to remember our objective as Rocket Fans!

 

yetti,

nonono. i wasn't referring to ya.
i was referring to the general gist of several chinese posters on the previous pages.

i agree with your post 100%.
there is a time and a place for these things. and now is perhaps not the best time if our aim is to have the rockets sign yao asap.

 

Whatever you do, please do not make things up. Geez, I thought this thread was finally one about asking questions and getting answers in stead of opining without solid knowlege.