This from the latest WTO member

While the Chinese have been cooperating somewhat with our efforts, they have used this as a propaganda opportunity. For example, they have a propaganda commercial that shows images of the WTC on fire and collapsing, with the voice-over saying "Finally, the images from America the world wanted to see". They are not our friends...

 

Big deal.

Why does it still surprise people that the US is not well-liked? If you're going to get offended everytime soemthing like this comes up, I'd suggest you don't read the international news.

 

No way. Can you give us a link? It seems hard to believe that no one has said anything about that if the PRC government is responsible for that. (not calling you out just wondering if you've seen it or if you heard about it).

 

You're crazy. No one should be WANTING to see images of people burning up in buildings. Your attitude is ridiculous.

 

LOL!

JV, you... um, you lover of Karl Malone and all that is evil!

 

If I don't get people riled up, I'm not doing my job.

No one should want to see people burning up. But we do have people in our own country who wish we would have turned Afghanistan into a parking lot. People on this board who were suggesting that we nuke the place, that we suffocate them in caves. People who would dance a jig at the news that bin Laden was killed. People who reprimanded me for being glad that a man who burned himself in an anti-American demonstration was ok in the end. I don't remember who was who anymore, but this is just a note for the warhawks among us. Don't be surprised at people celebrating our deaths when we celebrate theirs.

There's nothing crazy about that. I'm just being consistent. I don't think they're right, but they are normal. They're behaving the same way we are. So how can we judge them for that?

 

That's silly. I'm hawkish, but that doesn't mean I like to see innocent people burn to death. Osama ain't innocent in case you've been in a cave for a few months (hey, wait a minute...). Even DaDakota, who I believe was leading the colonize the Middle East Brigade wasn't saying "we want to see innocent people die." So yeah, it does suprise me that people would say that. And it especially would suprise me if its true that a GOVERNMENT would say it, as even the Taliban didn't say stuff like that after Sept 11th...

 

HayesStreet:

I can't find a link right now, but it was reported on Fox about a month ago. I just thought it was in extremely poor taste, even coming from the Chicoms...

JuanValdez:

We are not at war with China. We are at war with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. I will happily do a jig when Osama is finally killed, because he has killed thousands of our people. You might regard such an event (the death of Osama) as a sorrowful occasion, but I for one am going to party.

Why does that bother some people, but the fact that we were attacked doesn't?

As for celebrating their deaths - when has anyone celebrated the deaths of Chinese??? They are not behaving the same way we are.

I am fully aware that we are not liked around most of the world, but I fail to see how such propaganda could be constructive. I can fully understand such propaganda coming from an entity we are at war with, but as I pointed out we are not at war with China. Reinforcing anti-American sentiment in the Chinese population is not going to help us avoid war with them in the future. The Communists take advantage of the US-China rift at every turn in order to deflect unrest outward, and that is not going to help to ensure future peace.

I think taking such sentiments too lightly around the world is what got us into this mess in the first place.

 

<A HREF="http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/04/wchin04.xml">Article on Chinese videos</A>


Mango

 

Wow. That's unreal. Bastards. We'll see how they like it when their Muslim provinces try to break away.

 

1. Which are we talking about, (a) the political ramifications of anti-American propaganda or (b) the phenomenon of finding joy in the suffering of others? If it is the former, I don't see what there is to complain about; it's not good for us, but neither can we demand a different apprach. The latter was what I was addressing. If that's what we're talking about, it doesn't matter if it is Chinese or Afghani suffering we celebrate, only the celebration (btw, there is plenty of 'serves them right' thinking about the Chinese as well).

2. "Why does that [bin Laden's death] bother some people, but the fact that we were attacked doesn't?" Both things bother me. I don't need to say how bad it is that the WTC was bombed because everyone already does it for me. I'm just pointing out that death is death, whether it comes to a MSDW analyst or to an internatinal terrorist and that is a sorrowful thing. Don't pity one and be callous to the other. And don't think the death of one pays for the death of the other.

3. Osama ain't innocent. That's true. So what? Nor am I by my definition of the word; nor are you or the 4,000 people who died in the WTC. What does a person need to be guilty of to deserve having their deaths celebrated? And who is authorized to make that determination?

4. It's funny you mentioned me living in a cave because, with my near-complete ignorance of what is happening on TV and on the radio, I'm often caught in complete ignorance of the cultural novelties of the day -- and I tell people I've been living in a cave.

5. "I'm hawkish, but that doesn't mean I like to see innocent people burn to death." I won't say that you would. But what about the 'collateral damage'? The US makes people suffer just coincedentally as we try to attain our military goals. I don't think Americans are happy about it, but we certainly don't concern ourselves much with it. The callousness is certainly a step below making figurines of a burning WTC, but it is a callousness.

 

Ah, no i don't think so. Killing Ted Bundy is not the same as killing an innocent child. Osama being killed in a firefight is not the same as a stockbroker going up in the WTC. It might be sad that anyone has to die, but that is not the same thing as saying no action should ever be taken that results in death, especially when that may be the only way to stop a particular individual. You can't bring anyone back, so one death may not pay for another, BUT it is not out of line to consider an innocent above a criminal in our heartfelt sympathies.

You are out of line. The 4,000 PLUS people who bit the dust in the WTC are not comparable to Osama. Where do you get off saying stuff like this? Osama was not oppressed, he is not poor, or beaten down. He's just some loon who picked up a cause to gain power. Osama will eat it because he has said its the only way to stop him.

While I'm sure you and I are not 'innocent' meaning having no sin or vice, that is not what we're talking about and you are being either facitious or stupid by playing semantical games with the word. Those WTC people didn't attack Osama, they didn't settle Jews in Palestine, they didn't put troops in Saudi Arabia. And none of those things justify the WTC attack anyway.

Who is authorized? We'll if you are total relativist, then you don't think anyone is. BUT most every nation on this planet DOES agree that Osama should be taken out. Remember he is on record as saying we're not gonna catch him alive. In order for societys to function there has to be some consensus on what is and is not acceptable.

Yeah, that's funny. Like a train wreck.

Stupid stupid horrible example: Americans don't EVER celebrate innocent deaths, collateral or no. Even the military, who you would assume would be the most 'callous' go to great lengths to prevent those deaths. Look at our operations in Afghanistan. And how exactly are our troops in Saudi Arabia killing any innocents? Since you admittedly don't keep up with the news, and are just talking out of your ass to 'rile people up,' you must not know that its Osama's #1 beef with the US.

Death may be a sorrowful thing, but don't equate the victims with the criminal that sentenced them to a most hideous death. At some point civilization has to take retribution. Maybe you don't have to cut off the hand of a thief. But a mass murderer is a different matter.

 

I wonder what they will think of all the maps when the world must rename their terrirory U.S.A.

 

HayesStreet said almost everything I was going to...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I must say that it's not so much a feeling of jubilation I'd experience upon hearing of Osama's death as a feeling of intense relief. It's like getting drunk after your semester finals or something - you are happy to have them out of the way.

When he is dead we can be sure that he won't be killing any more Americans, and that will make me very happy. Of course, his buddies will still be around, but they will eventually be hunted down, too. And I will be relieved when they are gone as well.

In case you haven't noticed these people intend to kill us. I fail to see how removing that threat is a bad thing, or something we should feel guilty about.

And you should be ashamed comparing the death of Osama to the deaths of those people in the WTC. They didn't declare war on anyone.

 

.

 

Hey, I can do moral condemnation with the best of them, but that's not really any way to conduct an argument.

Being happy about bin Laden's death is exactly the same at the Chinese being happy about the WTC deaths. Many foreign countries see Americans (and especially American capitalists like the ones who have offices in the WTC) as being responsible for wars, deaths and persecutions the world over. In their eyes, we -- even civilians -- are every bit as guilty as we see bin Laden as being.

'Oh, but we're not really responsible for all the evils they accuse us of,' I know you will argue. Someone may even throw in how thankful everyone should be for all the help we give everyone. For one, that's bull****. But also, I'm speaking of perceptions for the moment. As much as bin Laden is an enemy to us, so we are an enemy to the Chinese and a host of other nations. If it is ok to hate your enemies and be happy or relieved when their capacity for evil is reduced, then it should be ok for the Chinese to behave that way toward us.

Now, a few cleanup notes:

1) I never said we shouldn't kill bin Laden. I think we should. I'm just not happy about it.

2) "You are out of line." My favorite line from this whole thread. Is this the democracy we're fighting for? Conformity?

3) "Since you admittedly don't keep up with the news, and are just talking out of your ass to 'rile people up,' you must not know that its Osama's #1 beef with the US." Actually, I said I don't watch TV or listen to the radio. I'm in a cave culturally, but I am obsessive about the news. As for the riling people up, perhaps you didn't notice I was joking? I'm not trolling (if I were, should you be responding?), I'm disagreeing.

 

That's because most of us couldn't give a damn about some poor Afghan in the middle of a desert. Are you trying to tell me that even 40-50% of the U.S. populace really give a damn about collateral damage in Afghanistan? Give me a break.

I find the product depicted above disgusting, but I don't think US citizens are beyond making a joke out of the plight of others in the same manner. For example, back in the 80's when Ethiopians were dying due to starvation, comedians made joke after joke about their situation. It was absolutely disgusting. Where was our uproar? We, in this country, take a lot of things for granted and one of them is life. The WTC attack seems to have stopped many from taking it so nonchalantly.

"Americans don't EVER celebrate innocent deaths" may or may not be true, but my counter to you is that the average American doesn't give a flip as long as we get revenge. The average American doesn't know that being Muslim, Afghani, and terrorist are mutually exclusive qualities. I experience this "let's bomb the **** out of Afghanistan" attitude regularly in the workplace. People are saying things like "let's drop a few nuclear warheads on the country and wipe them out". Are they considering "the innocent" in Afghanistan? Of course not.

I for one don't want Osama bin Laden dead yet. There would be no greater picture in my eyes at this moment than to see a US soldier dragging the fool out of a cave with US flag waving out of his turban. I would pay to see that happen. After that picture is taken, do with him as you please... I know the chances of this happening are remote as he's more likely to get erradicated.

 

No, it is not. Those people in the WTC did not attack China.

I understand the importance of perception, but just because it exists does not make it true. The Chinese dislike us because they see us as the real obstacle to Chinese hegemony in Asia. Japan is at least as much of a real obstacle, but since perception is all that matters...

Again, When did we attack the Chinese?

If 5,000 or so Chinese died in a terrorist attack, do you think the US govt would use it as a propaganda opportunity? No, we'd be the first ones to call them and ask if they needed emergency assistance and relief. But what do they do? Just what you'd expect a communist nation that has brainwashed its people into hating the West to do...

How is it BS that we actually help much of the world? Is all of the economic and humanitarian aid we give a lie? Is holding back communism and protecting democracy wrong? Was the Cold War a myth?

I'd like to hear exactly how we are responsible for all of the world's evils. If their perceptions are accurate and justified, then we must be...