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They were all volunnteers

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, May 27, 2006.

  1. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    who gave the last full measure of devotion.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114868154353064632.html?mod=opinion&ojcontent=otep

    --
    Memorial Day
    By CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS
    May 27, 2006; Page A6

    LONDON -- In the Cotswold hills, in deep England, there is a pair of villages named Upper Slaughter and Lower Slaughter. In addition to its rather gruesome name, Lower Slaughter possesses a unique distinction. It is the only village in all of England that does not possess a First World War memorial. In the remainder of the country, even the smallest hamlet will have -- I almost said "will boast" -- a stone marker with an arresting number of names on it. In bigger towns, it wouldn't be possible to incise all the names in stone, though at the Menin Gate in the Belgian town of Ypres a whole arch is inscribed with the names of those who fell along the Somme. Every year on Nov. 11 -- anniversary of the 1918 "Armistice" -- the rest of the English-speaking world gathers, with Flanders poppies worn in the lapel, to commemorate the dead of all wars but in particular to feel again the still-aching wounds of the "war to end all wars": the barbaric conflict that shook peoples' faith in civilization itself.

    Though the carnage of that war was felt much less in the United States, it was only after the doughboys returned in 1918 that the former Confederate states dropped their boycott of America's original "Memorial Day," proclaimed by Union commander Gen. John Logan in May 1868. And here one can note the bizarre manner in which war -- which is division by definition -- exerts its paradoxically unifying effect. If it is "the health of the state," as was sardonically said by that great foe of "Mr. Wilson's war," Randolph Bourne, then it can also be an agent of emancipation and nation-building and even (as was proved after 1945) of democracy. But even this reflection can never abolish the insoluble problem: how to estimate the value of those whose lives were cruelly cut off before victory was in sight. It is sometimes rather lazily said that these soldiers "gave" their lives. It would be equally apt, if more blunt, to say that they had their lives taken. Humanity has been grappling with this conundrum ever since Pericles gave his funeral oration, and there would have been many Spartan and Melian widows and orphans who would have been heartily sickened by those Athenian-centered remarks.

    The soil of the United States is almost spoiled for choice when it comes to commemorative sites. They range from Gettysburg itself -- still one of the most staggering places of memory in the world -- to the Confederate statue of Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the founders of the Ku Klux Klan, and extend from the Polar Bear monument in Detroit (honoring those Michiganders who helped invade Russia in 1919: a forgotten war if ever there was one) to Maya Lin's masterpiece of Vietnam understatement on the National Mall. But Memorial Day transcends the specific, and collectivizes all disparate recollections into one single reflection upon the losses inflicted by war itself. The summa of this style, and one that transcends Pericles, is of course the Gettysburg Address, in which one cannot distinguish which side's graves are actually being honored. It was always Mr. Lincoln's way to insist that he was the elected president of every state, not just the "northern" ones, and this speech still has the power to stir us because it was the most strenuous possible test of that essential proposition.

    A memorial to, and for, all is certainly an improvement on the Arc de Triomphe/Brandenburg Gate style, which was regnant until 1918 and which asserted national exclusivity. Kemal Ataturk did a noble thing when he raised a monument to all those who fell at Gallipoli, and informed the British and Australian peoples that their "Tommies and Johnnies" would lie with his "Alis and Mehmets." But there are also disadvantages to a memorial that is too "inclusive." Not even President Reagan's fine speech at the cliffs of Pointe du Hoq has erased his crass equation of the "victims" at Bitburg cemetery with their victims. Bitburg is not Gettysburg: Some wounds cannot and perhaps should not be healed. The opposite danger also exists: Our "Memorial Day" is now the occasion of a three-day holiday weekend (over the protest of the Veterans of Foreign Wars) and has become somewhat banal precisely because it seems to honor nobody in particular.

    The stark concept of "The Unknown Soldier" was the best expression of awe and respect that the century of total war managed to produce. Rudyard Kipling, whose only son John was posted as "missing" in 1915 (and whose remains were not found until 15 years ago) was the designer of the official headstone for those soldiers who lay in mass graves and could not even be identified. No pacifist, he nonetheless wrote with scorn of the "jelly-bellied flag-flappers" who lectured schoolboys on the glories of combat. Over time, it is the bleak poetry of Wilfred Owen, and not the inspirational verse of Julian Grenfell and Rupert Brooke, that has come to express the more profound experiences of warfare. Some thoughts must always lie too deep for tears.

    Since all efforts at commemoration are bound to fall short, one must be on guard against any attempt at overstatement. In particular, one must resist efforts to ventriloquize the dead. To me, Cindy Sheehan's posthumous conscription of her son (who fell on Memorial Day) is as objectionable as Billy Graham's claim, at the National Cathedral, that all the dead of Sept. 11, 2001 were now in paradise. In the first instance, we have no reason to believe that young Casey Sheehan would ever have supported MoveOn.org, and in the second instance we cannot be expected to believe that almost 3,000 New Yorkers all died in a state of grace. Nothing is more tasteless, when set against the reality of death, than the hollow note of demagogy and false sentiment. These things are also subject to unintended consequences. When Dalton Trumbo wrote his leftist antiwar classic "Johnnie Got His Gun," he little expected that it would be used as a propaganda tool by pro-fascist isolationists in the late 1930s, and that he would be protesting in vain that this was not what he had really meant.

    "Always think of it: never speak of it." That was the stoic French injunction during the time when the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine had been lost. This resolution might serve us well at the present time, when we are in mid-conflict with a hideous foe, and when it is too soon to be thinking of memorials to a war not yet won. This Memorial Day, one might think particularly of those of our fallen who also guarded polling-places, opened schools and clinics, and excavated mass graves. They represent the highest form of the citizen, and every man and woman among them was a volunteer. This plain statement requires no further rhetoric.

    Mr. Hitchens, a columnist for Vanity Fair, is author, most recently, of "Thomas Jefferson: Author of America" (HarperCollins, 2005).
     
  2. CreepyFloyd

    CreepyFloyd Member

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    Ah Christopher Hitchens, the alcoholic e-mail thief and ex-Trotskyite turned neo-conservative backer of Bush...not a very credible source other than for gossip
     
  3. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    It's great that your posts are always appropriate and respectful and that you always comport yourself with such a dignified and cultured manner. You are a credit to thoughtful intelligent people everywhere. :rolleyes:
     
  4. CreepyFloyd

    CreepyFloyd Member

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    is anything that i said about hitchens false? i was commenting on the source of this article, stick to the issues, don't attack me
     
  5. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    Did it have anything to do with the article? As you say, stick to the issues.
     
  6. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    Perhaps you could've addressed the issues in the article rather than attack the author.
     
  7. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Really. What a knee-jerk response. While there are a few small parts of it I think could have been worded differently, I found it a moving piece. Thanks, basso, and learn to spell, "volunteers." ;)



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  8. CreepyFloyd

    CreepyFloyd Member

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    is anything that i said about hitchens false?
     
  9. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    Not necessarily but what does that have to do with addressing the issues raised in the piece? I mean Hemmingway was a drunk and a blowhard but I don't judge A Farewell to Arms based on how drunk Hemmingway was.

    Yes you state facts, and in this case, you're stating opinion that Hitchens is an ex-Trotskyite now supporter of Bush I'm not aware of any objective test that can determine Trostskyite or non-Trostkyite someone is. Some facts though aren't that relevent to a discussion.
     
  10. CreepyFloyd

    CreepyFloyd Member

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    I'm going by his own words and actions
     
  11. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Regarding what? This column? What does, "Ah Christopher Hitchens, the alcoholic e-mail thief and ex-Trotskyite turned neo-conservative backer of Bush...not a very credible source other than for gossip" have to do with what basso quoted? I could come up with a couple of things Hitchens could have left out, IMO, but they are so small, relatively speaking, that they don't outweigh what I like about it. I just don't get your response. Is it that you simply dislike history? Hitchens crammed quite a bit of history, and interpretation, into a short piece of prose.



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  12. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Since all efforts at commemoration are bound to fall short, one must be on guard against any attempt at overstatement. In particular, one must resist efforts to ventriloquize the dead. To me,
    I'm sorry this is a bunch of crap from a warmongerer whatever Hitchen's background and not merely a generic tribute to veterans,

    One can honor the veterans in many ways. One way is to not send curent soldiers for needless wars or romanticizing maudlin crap like this designed to try to justify an unjust war that is going poorly.
     
  13. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    War is not romantic- it's fighting and killing. and however you feel about the war in iraq, and why our soldiers died there, in the end, they died for us, so that you and I, and our children, don't have to. you may not respect their leaders, nor their cause, but you should should at least accord them respect for their sacrifice.

    hitchens' point is that great memorials, from the battle field of gettysburg, lincoln's address there, to the vietnam memorial, serve to bind up the nations wounds, and unite us in sorrow, honor, and respect, and w/ out recrimination. if you've ever spent any time at the vietnam memorial, or walking the field below little round top, across which picket's men charged, it's impossible not to feel a sense of awe at what these men and women did for their country.

    one of the tragedies of our current political disfunction is the extent that sense of unity in sacrifice has been lost. it would behoove all of us to look for ways to to transcend our separation; honoring the sacrifice of the men and women who dies in iraq would be the perfect place to start.
     
  14. oomp

    oomp Contributing Member

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    My biological father died in Vietnam before we were ever properly introduced, not all of us need a memorial to remind us of what has been sacrificed. The thought of how many children today who will be in the same situation as I was because of our current inept leadership, saddens me.

    I don't think it's lost on us at all. We don't need memorials to the dead until the battles are over. We need sons, daughters, husbands and wives safe and home with their families.
     
  15. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Exactly. That is why it is bs for chickehhawks to romanticize monuments to war or wars.

    Wit us or agin us. Shut up about this unnecessary war or you don't support the troops. Same ol. Same ol


    Well duh. That is why you don't fight unnecessary wars when half the country has always opposed it, except for a brief period when the lies leading to it were not known by many.

    Npw that the chickenhawks have crammed this loser of a war down our throats they want to be all into being uniters not dividers by supporting the war or at least not opposing it.Nice.

    Agreed, but lying about why they went or the necessity of it, by chickenhawks who won't go is not the way to do this.
    Frankly it is a disgrace to try to use Memorial Day to bolster Bush and his disgraceful war. Hitchens and his supporters should be ashamed to do so.
     
    #15 glynch, May 28, 2006
    Last edited: May 28, 2006
  16. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    I have no idea how you could get this as the theme from the text of the article if you read it.

    There is one paragraph that could be (if you work really hard at it) interpreted this way. At the same time, the paragraph provides a counter-example in the other direction.

    An honest question:
    Do you just simply disaprove of the idea of Memorial Day?
     
    #16 Ottomaton, May 28, 2006
    Last edited: May 28, 2006
  17. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Taking your question as being an honest one. No, I don't oppose the idea of Memorial Day. ( I don't approve of Al Qaeda, hate the troops or support Jihadists either fyi)

    I don't like to see Memorial day being politicized by the usual suspects to blast opponents of curent wars as they freqently try do.

    An honest question. Do you think this is done by some folks?
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    Absolutely. I've seen several attempts at this today. They completely sicken me. They usually have quite a bit in common with all the 9/11 heartstring-tugging crap that appeared right around the time we were gearing up to going to Iraq.

    As I read this article, however, I think Mr. Hitchens is not trying to do any of that. This reads to me like a legitimate heartfelt article without any agenda. I appreciate that you might object to the bit about Cindy Sheehan, but I don't see it as any sort of conspiracy to confuse you into joining the Army, or any kind of right-wing demagoguery.

    If he flipped it around to discuss an example of conservatives speaking for the dead, I think you'd be all behind it. The point, regardless of which direction you turn it strikes me as fundamentally valid. One should not take speaking for the dead lightly, no matter what your political views are.

    I think most of the politicizing seems to be coming in response to the article and seems to be more intent than Hitchens on using what should be a relatively solemn or at least respectful subject in a crass way.
     
  19. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    BTW if you are a pacifist it strikes me as perfectly logical to be against the idea of Memorial Day as it glorifies soldiers. I wouldn't spit on you or be scandalised in any way.

    The most I would think would be that you view the world in a bit of a simplistic way and would disagree but I wouldn't flip out.

    I also wouldn't accuse you of being a sympathizing with al Qaeda, as pacifism, as I understand it, generally doesn't endorse the idea of holy war and would in fact be against it, and so the two philosophies would seem to be at odds.
     
  20. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    That's funny, I find a true commitment to peace and non-violence to be quite the opposite of simplistic.
     

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