lol at this list duncan should be 1 folowed by wallace then bowen battier probably barely makes the top 10
It makes me headache to try to find a single reason why Dikembe is behind Yao, David Wesley and Cuttino? Dikembe is one of all time defensive player. This list is no sense.
Deke started his Rockets career at 38. Is is unquestionably better than Yao defensively during his career, but that is debatable during his stint with the Rockets.
minute-wise, i think deke is the better defender than yao in his rocket career. but deke barely plays, so you have to give the nod to yao. he has improved defensively. the only teams he struggles against are those who are fast and have mobile centers.
Always nice to see some rox recognition, even thou Battier is abit high on the list. As I rated him behind players like Prince and Bowen. Players that actually help their team to win multiple championship. On the top 10 Rox list, how can anyone forget Ryan Bowen? And the Dream plays till 2001 for the rox. So technically he is in the last decade.
i.e. tall power forwards and small forwards other teams just slap on yao cos they basically gave up on trying to defend yao conventionally and try to outmatch him offensively.....
Agreed that Battier is a bit high on that list, but he's definitely a better defender than Prince (a good defender nonetheless) and I'd probably give him the edge over Bowen as well. If Battier replaced Bowen on those Spurs teams, San Antonio would probably win at least one additional title. He does everything that Bowen does on defense, only better and without fouling nearly as much. Battier is (and always has been) a much better shot-blocker than Bowen as well. He might actually be the best shot-blocker on the Rockets' active roster right now (although that's not saying much). As far as the whole "he helped his team win championships" component to ranking the top defenders, while valid, is being emphasized a little TOO much in this thread. Great defensive players get stuck on otherwise poor defensive teams all the time. Look at Kevin Garnett on the T-Wolves. A great defender can only do so much to make up for his teammates' deficiencies. On the other hand, if a team has a lot of pretty decent defenders, then a good defender's job is much easier and his defensive prowess is easier to recognize and reward. Oh, and another thing (generally speaking) . . . I'm starting to get sick and tired of the whole "[insert star player's name] is so talented that he COULD be a great defender if he concentrated on it all the time, but he can only be great sometimes because he needs to concentrate on his offense" argument as to why guys like Lebron James seem to always make the All-Defense First Team over guys like Bruce Bowen or Shane Battier, who concentrate almost exclusively on defense. If physical ability to accomplish a feat was all that mattered, then guys like Qyntel Woods and Keith Brumbaugh would be NBA All-Stars. Awards should be based on actual ACCOMPLISHMENT. Lebron James won the NBA MVP and the All-NBA First Team because of his accomplishments. Sure, he's also a pretty good defender. But Shane Battier was a more ACCOMPLISHED defender based on his on-court defensive production. One more pet-peave of mine. The insistence that the rebound totals of a player determine how good a defender a forward actually is. Marcus Camby actually managed to fool the general public (and the media) into thinking that he was a good defender by getting a bunch of rebounds and leaving his man open to block some shots. Meanwhile, people have forgotten about the importance of BOXING OUT. I challenge people on this BBS to watch a Rockets' defensive position when the opponent's shot goes up. Battier always boxes his man out, enabling his teammates to get the rebound much more easily. Not enough players in the NBA concentrate much on boxing out, and THAT is what makes teams poor at defensive rebounding. Okay. Just wanted to get those things off my chest.
Points conceded per 100 possessions in 2008/2009: Houston (without Battier on the court) - 105.8 Cleveland (without Lebron on the court) - 109.6 Houston (with Battier on the court) - 104.2 Cleveland (with Lebron on the court) - 101.3 Our D without Battier >>>>>>>> Cavs D without Lebron Our D with Battier <<<<<<<< Cavs D with Lebron Also, points conceded to counterpart on opposing team per 48 minutes: Battier - 18.8 Lebron - 17.1 When you refer to "actual ACCOMPLISHMENT" and "on-court defensive production", do you really mean "stuff that didn't actually happen according to most if not all of the available evidence and statistics"?
Here are the on/off stats: Battier, Lebron I had to do a little extra work for the counterpart stats since, for some reason, they're displayed in this weird format that shows players' stats at each of the 5 positions, but not their overall stats. I think I got the numbers right though. Battier played 24% of the Rockets season (48 minutes x 82 games) at shooting guard, and another 24% at small forward (plus negligible time at other positions). When he played SG, opposing SG's averaged 17.7 points per 48 minutes. When he played SF, opposing SF's averaged 19.9. So the overall average is about 18.8. Lebron played 56% of the Cavs season at SF, and another 19% at PF (plus negligible time at other positions). He held opposing SF's to 17.0 points, and opposing PF's to 17.7, for an overall average of about 17.1.
Bob, I know that Lebron is a good defender, but your stats do not tell the whole story. The Cavs often used Delonte West or Sasha Pavlovic to cover the opponent's best wing, allowing Lebron to focus more on his offense. Meanwhile, Battier guards the opponent's best wing 95%+ of the time that he's on the floor. One of Adelman's biggest mistakes was allowing Ron Artest to guard Kobe for even one second while Shane Battier was on the floor. The Cavs and Rockets are both excellent defensive teams. That leads to some misleading individual defensive statistics. A lot of the analysis is simply empirical in nature.
shouldn't that make what lebron does even more impressive? most superstars in today's games don't dominate like lebron offensively, and also dominate defensively. i think you have to watch lebron very closely on D when you watch the cavs. he's like their safety (he erases a lot of mistakes) ala KG for the celtics. while i don't disagree if people say shane is the better defender, but lebron is not that far off.
Opinions on defense will always be different as there is no define stat to compare. However, I really doubt that Battier be able to filled in Bowen shoes in the Spurs unit. As Bowen is always the primary defender on opposition star PGs. Something that Battier can not do. And fouling? Battier avg PF- 2.5 ref Bowen avg PF- 2.2 ref
I think Lebron James isn't one of those "could be a great defender" guys... he actually was a great defender last year and he was in fact trying hard on that end much of the time. I believe Jeff Van Gundy, a pretty good judge of talent on that end, commented on that. There are other guys who fall into that category (perhaps Lebron James in the years before), but I think James deserves some credit.
I love Shane Battier as much as the next guy (I think...depends on who that guy is)... ....but there's no way, over the last decade, that he's been a better defender than Tim Duncan and Ben Wallace. I can't see a case for Battier being better than Dikembe Mutombo.... ...maybe Battier could squeak into the top 5 on this list if not for Bruce Bowen and Jason Kidd (Kidd's HIGHLY underrated as a defender, especially during his time in New Jersey). As good as Shane is defensively, you could make the case that it's a wash between him and Ron Artest, so Battier shouldn't really be any higher than sixth on this list, if you ask me. You DID ask me, didn't you?
