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The term "Islamophobia" is a misnomer and a propaganda weapon

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. Codman

    Codman Contributing Member

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    ATW--one quick search of your posting history shows your infatuation with portraying Muslims/Islam in a negative way, probably much more than you are aware of.

    What, if anything, in your personal life or past has made you feel so strongly about this topic? Was it 9/11?

    I don't get it.
     
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  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    What do you call a pro-lifer? Isn't that someone taking what's in the bible and trying to make it the law of the land?
     
  3. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    There is not all that much I want to disagree with in this post, except the comparison to Christianity and Hinduism. In theory, what you are saying may be correct, but if you look at the evidence - acts of terror, acts of intolerance, etc. - nowadays, it's no comparison. Some people like to point at the crusades. Well, maybe they were "just a reaction" as well. In any case, maybe learning from the history especially of Christianity may be helpful to find a path for Islam (or its interpretation) to produce more peaceful followers.

    Question out of curiosity:

    Does Islam have any messages like "turning the other cheek"? It's actually something that confused me when I was a kid, learning about Christianity. Intuitively, it didn't seem entirely fair to me. But nowadays (although I am more or less agnostic), I consider it a, if not the, key message.

    If this message can be found in the Quran - maybe it's partly just a matter of finding a reformer to prioritize it over messages that can be interpreted in a more combative way.
     
  4. Depressio

    Depressio Contributing Member

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    I'm not saying you do, but often the things you described are generalized to Muslims as a whole which is simply unfair. The people who think all Muslims want to stone homosexuals and adulterers, for example, are Islamophobes. The generalization makes the term apt for some people.

    Another example: a gay guy has AIDs. Now all gays are feared to have AIDs. Noting that some gay people have AIDs: not homophobic. Saying that all gay people probably have AIDs: homophobic.
     
  5. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    I agree with this 100 %, even though it may sometimes not seem that way if you read my posts and threads started.
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    It's a fair question except that you, too, are confusing my criticism of Islam(ism) with a suggested portrayal of Muslims in a negative way.

    For lack of a better example - if I say I strongly dislike the Utah Jazz, it doesn't mean the same as me saying "all Utah Jazz fans are disgusting scum and I want them to die". They might just be Jazz fans because they were born there. I can let that one go ;).

    As to your question: I think it's a good and fair question. Quite clearly, it's a topic I have taken a special interest in. I can't tell you for sure that it was a single event that triggered my interest in this. It's not like someone I was close to did anything or was in any way affected. I guess it's just something about which I have been following the news, and every time I read about something like suicide attacks to become a martyr, about certain treatment of women, etc. etc. etc., it kind of boggles my mind how attitudes and incidents like this are possible in the century we live in.

    So it's a mix of expressing my disagreement ("outrage" would be too much, probably) with what is going on, trying to get other people's viewpoints on these issues and probably, by now, trolling certain other members a bit.

    Does that answer your question?
     
  7. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    At the end of the day, I am not an expert in religious text. Born a Hindu I don't even know much about my own religion anymore because I disavow all religion and inherently flawed.

    But there are passages of the Quran that teaches peace: "If your enemy inclines toward peace, then you too should seek peace and put your trust in God" (Quran 8:61)

    Seems that the Quran lays out a framework for when to fight and when to make peace that's pretty rational and logical. But like any religious text, things are open to interpretation and people use religion for their own devices, rarely the other way around.

    I also have to say, I'm somewhat surprised to see you taking a softer tone today. Did you have an epiphany of some sort?
     
  8. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    No. For some perhaps, but they aren't trying to make mosaic law replace the constitution which is the equivalent of what an Islamist wants to do.
     
  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Funny how you give an answer that is to a different question than I was asking.
     
  10. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    I answered you. I said no when you asked if a pro lifer is trying to take the bible and make it the law of the land then followed it up by saying for some.

    :confused:
     
  11. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    So you agree that some pro-lifers are trying to take parts of the bible and make it the law of the land?

    Basically a form of Christian law.

    Things like making public nudity illegal. Sodomy laws. Old laws around liquor sales on Sunday.
     
  12. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

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    So is homophobia. But it's damn effective.

    Politics is all about demonizing rational disagreement to promote your own side of it.
     
  13. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    Not at all. I was pro-Lifer years before I began attending any kind of church-- which I quit at the "age of reason"-- age 12!

    What is "pro-Life" about "anti-Sodomy" laws?
     
  14. NMS is the Best

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    See the Anders Breivik thread from a while back. ATW made a million excuses for Christianity and bent over backwards in a million different ways to try and absolve Christianity of all blame in that incident. I don't blame Christianity for what one crazy person did either, but the hypocrisy is telling and ATW is absolutely deserving of the 'islamophobe' label...
     
    2 people like this.
  15. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Contributing Member

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    You're being a little sensitive, I think.

    And hate to disagree with you, but you do sort of verge on "Islamophobe" territory (even if the term does become too catch-all or handily applied). It isn't that you don't make viable points. But not every Muslim falls into the chop-chop-Square, jihad, hates-the-West, learns-to-fly-planes-into-buildings category.

    When I see your name as a thread's OP, I can already guess the subject of the thread. It's a very personal thing with you.

    Hell, I could point out two Presidents who (1) led a gullible vengeful America into a war against a country that didn't attack us (awful dictator that its ruler was) and (2) have kept us in Afghanistan longer than needed. Both of whom purport to be Christians.

    How many Christians out there pray fervently in Jesus' name and yet commit (state-sanctioned?) murder or rob people's pensions or savings....or turn a blind eye when a country full of brown people whose language or culture we don't understand is bombed to pieces just so we MIGHT justify exterminating a few rotten apples (IF we managed to get the rotten apples in the first place)?

    I was looking at your ignore list. Makes it hard to follow this thread without AtW's posts; and there was a time when you'd miss every third post on the GARM or D&D by having DD on ignore.
     
  16. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    Sure. I don't know what your point is?

    Yes, there are many people who want to use some parts of the Bible as the basis for morality laws in this country. That isn't close to the same thing as the Islamists in SOME countries that want to Sharia Law to be implemented solely as the law of the land with religious leaders acting as the judge and jury.

    I think you know that too, but hey, if it makes you feel better to try to act like American Christians are the same as groups like the Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. then feel free. Doesn't impact me for you to be so wrong.

    It's awesome that you think public nudity rules are the same as putting a woman in jail if she gets raped, stoning her to death, etc.
     
  17. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
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    What a great post. I agree 100% with ATW on his criticisms, but he is undeniably ethnocentric.

    Christianity deserves more than a fair share of criticism.

    The end all be all is that delusion is dangerous, no matter the kind. Religion is dangerous by nature, and it was invented to control. It has always been such.
     
  18. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    But that's the point - I never said that every Muslim does (or even that more than a small minority of Muslims do). Yet, your post seems to imply that I would have said that.

    As to the Christians - sure. You will be able to find several posts from me in which I clearly state that I am much more comfortable with a moderate Muslim than with a fundamentalist Christian.
     
  19. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Meet the New Jews, Same as the Old Jews
    Why ‘Islamophobia’ in Europe cannot be equated with anti-Semitism, either in nature or degree


    With violent attacks against Jewish communities on the rise across Europe, it’s worth revisiting one of the sillier memes to have infested public discussion over the past decade: that Muslims are the “new Jews.”

    This claim gained currency about a decade ago, when France banned the wearing of conspicuous religious symbols (including the Islamic face veil) in schools. The following year in Denmark, newspaper cartoons portraying the prophet Mohammed set off riots around the world. The concomitant rise of right-wing populist parties, which often deploy crude anti-Muslim messaging, played into a narrative that Muslims were an endangered minority.

    “Nazism reminds us of how thin is the crust of European civilization, and that it can be thrown off by the slightest provocation or none at all,” Yasmin Alibhai-Brown wrote in Britain’s Independent in 2006, before reaching her damning conclusion: “Today the new Jews of Europe are Muslims.” That same year, London Sunday Times columnist India Knight trotted out the analogy to condemn parliamentarian Jack Straw, who had expressed discomfort at having to meet with fully veiled Muslim female constituents. That his remarks did not cause more outrage, Knight wrote, indicated an “open season on Islam—Muslims are the new Jews.”

    The platitude hit a peak in 2011, after far right extremist Anders Bering Breivik murdered 77 people, mostly youth members of the Norwegian Labor Party, in protest of what he considered its lax attitude towards Muslim immigration. For many, the Breivik incident definitively proved that “Islamophobia” had replaced anti-Semitism as the continent’s reigning prejudice.

    The claim that Muslims are experiencing anything resembling the Holocaust of European Jewry is of course absurd. There are no measures barring marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims (as the Nuremberg racial laws did among Jews and gentiles), never mind death camps for followers of the Islamic faith. As offensive as some Muslims might have found the Mohammed cartoons, they are nothing compared to what appeared, with daily frequency, on the pages of Der Stürmer. Even Breivik took his rage out not on Muslims but left-wing political activists.

    To be sure, those asserting that Muslims have replaced Jews as the continental scapegoat are not claiming an exact likeness between the past experience of Jews and that of today’s Muslims. Rather, their argument invokes the slippery slope: Popular attitudes toward Muslims and Islam, they say, are creating the sort of “climate” wherein the continent’s ugly history could be repeated. “I wish I could believe the mantra of ‘never again,’ ” Huffington Post UK political director Mehdi Hasan wrote earlier this year after anti-immigrant parties won a record number of seats in the European Parliament. “But these European election results fill me with dread.”

    While it’s true that many Europeans are prejudiced against Muslims, to conflate all critical attitudes of Islam is to act as if Islam itself and the behavior of Muslims play no part in generating negative views. Jews never carried out terrorist attacks against civilians, issued fatwas on cartoonists who drew hook-nosed rabbis, or openly boasted of their goal to “conquer” the European continent, as prominent Muslim spokesmen have repeatedly done. Jewish schools did not indoctrinate their charges with hatred of Western civilization, as a recent British government investigation, dubbed “Trojan Horse,” found earlier this year, reporting an “aggressive Islamist agenda” being pushed in some Birmingham schools. To liken the potpourri of anti-Muslim bigotry—Dutch populist Geert Wilders calling for “fewer Moroccans,” the occasional accosting of a veiled woman—to eliminationist anti-Semitism is a gross exaggeration of the challenges Muslims face.

    Much of what passes these days for “Islamophobia”—a conversation-stopping word meant to render any and all criticism of Islam as “racist”—simply cannot be equated with anti-Semitism, either in nature or degree. To express qualms about the reactionary attitudes prevalent in many Muslim communities about women, as did the late Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn (who was murdered for his heresy), is not racist, nor is it in any way comparable to the bigotry directed at Jews, historically or today. In the United States, FBI statistics show that, since Sept. 11, anti-Semitic attacks have far outnumbered anti-Muslim ones. In Europe, mobs do not rampage and attack Muslims or mosques following Islamic-inspired terrorist attacks, as Jews are regularly assaulted whenever tension flares in the Middle East.

    None of this should obscure the fact that there are important similarities between the Muslim and Jewish experience, of both today and yesteryear. Muslims, Reed College Anthropology Professor Paul Silverstein told the San Francisco Chronicle in 2006, are “the object of a series of stereotypes, caricatures and fears which are not based in a reality and are independent of a person’s experience with Muslims.” Replace “Muslims” with “Jews” and you get a serviceable definition of anti-Semitism. In Europe today, both Muslims and Jews have been the targets of campaigns aimed at outlawing their traditional religious practices, namely, circumcision and the provision of kosher or halal food. Claiming their real motive to be concern for the “bodily integrity” of children or “animal welfare,” militant European secularists portray Muslims and Jews as barbaric peoples stuck in the past. Living in Germany two years ago at the height of the country’s anti-circumcision hysteria, I was confronted with provocative advertising campaigns that effectively likened Jews and Muslims to child molesters. French far-right leader Marine Le Pen, who likes to fashion herself a friend of the Jews, has called for banning not only the headscarf but also the kippah in public.

    Likening legitimate criticism of Islam to anti-Semitism, however, elides the fact that there does indeed exist a genuine clash between liberal, enlightenment European values and those embraced by a considerable number of Muslims. In 2010, Muslim author Reza Aslan was asked by Miller McCune magazine about his thoughts towards “those who perceive a real clash between the cultural values of the Netherlands, for example, which is otherwise very tolerant, and those of Muslims.” Aslan disputed that any such clash existed, telling his interlocutor that, “They said the exact same thing about Jews before they started slaughtering them.” Criticism of Islam, then, is mere prelude to genocide.

    The Muslim and Jewish experience also differs in another crucial way: size. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe and Muslims represent a far greater percentage of the population than Jews ever did. In France, Muslims comprise 8 percent; in Germany, they are 5 percent. According to the 1933 German census, less than 1 percent of German citizens were Jews. For Muslims to be “the new Jews,” they would have to be a diasporic people lacking a national home to protect them should the situation become truly intolerable, as was the case for European Jews of the 1930s who were prevented from immigrating to Mandate Palestine due to British quotas and heartlessly turned away from American shores. The Organization of Islamic Cooperation boasts 57 member states, and Muslims have about 1.6 billion co-religionists, nearly a quarter of the world’s population.

    Perversely, many of the people claiming the mantle of historic Jewish victimhood challenge Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish refuge. In this reading, if Europe’s Muslims are the new Jews, its (few remaining) Jews are the new Nazis. With tiring regularity, comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany can be found everywhere from the pages of Europe’s supposedly respectable, liberal newspapers to the massive demonstrations at which the Jewish state is accused of committing “genocide” against Palestinians.

    Eight years ago, as Mehdi Hasan has noted in the New Statesman, the alleged tide of Islamophobia led the Jewish journalist Jonathan Freedland to imagine the experience of being a Muslim in contemporary Britain. “I wouldn’t just feel frightened,” Freedland wrote for The Guardian in 2006. “I would be looking for my passport.” Yet as events over the past few months indicate, it is Jews who are scrambling for ways to leave the Old Continent due to rising intolerance against their very presence. And, irony of ironies, that intolerance comes almost exclusively from the alleged “new Jews” themselves, that is, Muslims. A November survey, conducted before the latest uptick in anti-Semitic attacks, found that 29 percent of European Jews have considered emigration. In the past few weeks alone, the number of anti-Semitic incidents has doubled in Britain, a Muslim mob tried to break into a Paris synagogue, and shouts of “Jews to the gas chambers” can once again be heard in Germany.

    The “new” Jews, it turns out, are the same as the old ones: Jews.

    http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/182608/islamophobia-anti-semitism
     
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  20. Exiled

    Exiled Member

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    This thread comes from a Jew who praised "anti-semitic" stuff but does't like others to use "islamphopic "term....this is pure sick double standards
     

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