I should say I was thinking on the offensive side for the comparison. I'm not real good at evaluating defense, but I understand Westbrook supposedly is a much better defender than Francis was. Westbrook's D hasn't been a part of the conversation in this thread anyway.
"Creator" =/= creating one's own shot. At least, not to me. It means creating for your teammates, rather than yourself. Davis' stats on a mediocre team are a lot different than Love's stats on Minny. You'd know that if you watch NOP games.
Have you never heard of "creating for yourself" or "creating your own shot"? Regardless, we are now both clear on what I meant by creator. To me - and I recognize there isn't universal criteria on this - a player should not be considered for MVP if he can't be given the ball to create (my definition) on an important possession down the stretch. Reason - the ability to create is rarer and more valuable than to finish. Does AD play this role for NO? It's my understanding he doesn't.
While true AD can't carry an entire offense like Harden right now, but consider the entire package and productivity, AD has been by far the most productive player in the entire league statistically. And those aren't empty stats. The Pels are contending for the 8th spot in the tough West. It's not the Kevin Love syndrome. Give AD a few more years and he might be able to reach the Lebron/Durant stratosphere that no current player can reach. Obviously WB's numbers will not sustain b/c as Durant gets healthier, he'll lose touches. But the point of my thread is how beastly this guy is. When he plays like this, it's hard to decide who's better: him or Durant. If OKC goes on a huge winning streak, don't be surprised WB will make a lot of noise in the MVP race.
I am. Watched him plenty. Anyone who would say that Westbrook is comparable to Francis is either a WB hater or flat out dumb. I guess because they both play the same position and are black?
Westbrook is better in every single way when compared to Francis. Francis is like a poor man's WB if you really want to compare them. The eye popping stat is he's putting up when elite guards put up an entire game in less than 30 minutes. That's simply INSANE.
If you just watch them in the playoffs then you must not be too high on Durant either than considering Westbrook was arguably their best player in the playoffs last year.
They played in different areas and very different styles. look at the advanced numbers. Steve is comparable in Ortg & Drtg. Also Steve has a higher career TS%. Westbrook is better but Steve is the exact same type of player and if not for injuries and a bad attitude Steve could have been every bit as good.
Just looking at the box score isn't enough. Dang, why should this even have to be explained. If you watch basketball, you would know. Is AD put in that playmaking position? Is that how the Pelicans run their offense? Is he surrounded by good outside shooters? How many full Pelicans games have you watched this year? I bet if you put some good shooters around him he could get that extra assist per game. Hell, pairing him with a center who doesn't have stonehands might just do it. Does that mean he suddenly became a much better player? Or does it just mean that context is relevant? Anyway, sorry to derail the thread some. I'm not arguing that Davis should be MVP over Harden, but he has been amazing this year. Westbrook is good. Still not convinced him and KD can win the title this year, but they will be fun to watch.
What are you talking about? Francis had a successful career. Sure it could have been better but he was an all-star for most of his career. WB is just on another level. Nothing wrong with that.
Maybe panned out was not the right term since he made it 10 years in the NBA, but successful relative to the expectations and going by W/L record he definitely wasn't. He was an all-star for 3 years and got less efficient as time went on.
If you all are interested in proving Westbrook is so much better than Francis that they aren't even comparable, why don't you pull some stats or something to justify your position? Westbrook is good, but his %'s are not elite. The crux of my Anthony Davis argument is the creator vs. finisher evaluation. To prove me wrong, you either have to show that a finisher is as valuable as a creator (good luck) or that Anthony Davis does create offense consistently.
A creator/playmaker, in my book atleast, is one who creates/makes plays for both himself and teammates.
Career: Points: WB (20.2 > 18.1) Reb: Francis (5.6 > 5) Ast: WB (6.9 > 6) Steal: WB (1.6 > 1.5) TO: tie FG: WB (43.4 > 42.9) PER: WB (21.3 > 18.3) WS/48: WB (0.14 > 0.12) And let's remind you that WB is arguably having his best season (at a historic pace right now) so he clearly hasn't even reached his peak yet. And he's already better than what Francis has done in his career. And WB's numbers the past few years are eite. Pretty much average 22-24 points, 6 boards, 7 dimes. At no point in Francis career he was considered a superstar. WB is.
Westbrook is absolutely similar to Steve Francis. They both have the same aggressive mentality on offense. Westbrook is also loads better across the board with the exception of offensive rebounding. Regardless, I haven't seen an offensive oriented ball dominating point guard to the extent of Westbrook win a title since Isiah Thomas. Not sure I'd be all that excited to have to build around him unless I had an Anthony Davis or Kevin Garnett type out there.
Wanted to start a thread like that but glad that t_mac1 had done it because what Westbrook is doing this year is pretty eye opening. Think about it, he's had 3 knee surgeries and a surgery on his wrist. And by the way he is playing with that "thing" on his wrist too which probably doesn't help while shooting the ball (I guess). The numbers he is putting up are of course great but he has changed ever since last year's playoffs. Too bad he has missed so many games because I trurly belived he might catch the MVP award (I know it may be difficult when you're playing with KD). Through 19 games last postseason he was averaging 26.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.1 APG, 2.2 SPG and 8.6 free throw atempts per game. He was shoting below 43% and belove 30% from the distance but just wanted to notice that he has actually carried that momentum into this season and maybe become even a better player. But the one thing I love most about his is that he is probably the most entertaining player to watch on a nightly basis and he never gives you less than 110% of effort.
