The rights and wrongs of "avoiding" death: cryogenics, frozen brains, and the promise of life ever a

Anyone can have eternal life.

John 3:16 (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

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Does it matter? These people are going to die anyway, they are already dead, as everyone of us is. This is their leap of faith their only desperate grasp to avoid the inevitable.

Why do you think that this is an american phenomenon? In China women wear whole body bath suits to avoid the sun and the wrinkles that it brings with it to have their spotless youthful looking white skin and show young.

In the Middle Ages there were countless alchemists who devoted their fortunes and lives to discover the philosopher stone and the elixir of life to give them immortality and eternal youth.

Herodotus himself writes about the legendary fountain of youth which was later sought out by the Crusaders.

well that's another philosophic discussion alltogether. What is the self and what is that makes you you? Is the brain enough? Or there is a soul that resides in the body?

 

It is higher today due to medicine and technology and peace and good diet yes. But they didn't have all these commodities in the past.
For example in ancient Greece , Sophocles lived to age 90 and that was so extremely remarkable to them and written by the historians. But 60 year olds were considered wise old men and so immediately respected and considered to be leaders (gerousia in Sparta).
So if you mean that in the ancient years people had the capabillities to live as long as we do, then yes of course since we are the same exact biologically wise as them, but they didn't have the opportunity because of all their circumstances in life.

About the time they had to contemplate...did they? The average human was a farmer who barely had enough to feed himself and his family , worked in the fields from dusk to dawn. They didn't have much time to make deep contemplations and were illterate but the fear of death still prevailed. That's where religion had a role, all religions and all their dogmas about the afterlife. Either it's reincarnation , heaven, vallhalla. That's where people found their guidance from the priests.
But the average human didn't have neither the time nor the opportunity to make his personal trip into contemplation about death.

 

I don't.

I do think marketing has advanced in US for the last 70 years and has been successful porting that lifestyle across the world, and adding on what DudeWah was describing.

There is a layer where we all try to avoid death overtly or subconsciously, but the current attitudes have been geared towards keeping consumers in that "18-34" mentality, where one doesn't need to take on traditional responsibilities or norms older generations bore...such as moving out of the house, getting married sooner, having children sooner, getting a job, committing to a firm relationship, paying off debts, or leaving the party lifestyle sooner.

It's not only looking young, but feeling, being and acting young in an almost post-adolescent state.

It is related because "downloading your brain" has been discussed as a possibility in the topic and in the article

The search for "self" is already messy, but I'm convinced that the container is just as important as the "soul". That our bodies age and wither away is part of a universal process that contributes to our humanity.

Let's say downloading a zipped up human soul/brain into an android is possible.

One can't claim with certainty that the combined being is the original being before hand or just a mere emulation of the brain patterns by the machine. I'm guessing the latter once Cleetus's aptitude tests shoot through the roof and his previous liking to moonshine just doesn't cut it anymore.

Would it really matter? Maybe that's the more important question.

 

Very nice post. I really like this topic.

For the first part...I have to say that I understand what you are saying but I am at the same time startled by it. :grin: But that's more likely from our difference cultural backgrounds (Where Dudewah's comment really comes in).
Because in southern Europe/the Mediterrenean people really marry ,have families and move out of their parents' houses much later than Northern Europeans and Americans. In fact it is widespread that it's the Americans who marry way too early.

Esp in Italy a man moves out of his parents house when he marries which usually comes after 30+. (before 30 you are considered too young to marry). - and that has nothing to do with the crisis though it made it even worse. It has to do with cultures, and the difference in families. I don't know how to explain very well but for me your comment about the american culture being like that was really startling.
I think you are way too critical in that way. It's not an american phenomenon that got exported. Unless we consider in a way the whole capitalism an american phenomenon ?
a) vanity preexisted the whole american culture, it is a human element that exists in every society throughout the ages. It wasn't marketed in tv before, but it doesn't matter. Women (and men) resorted to even painful measures to assure their youthful appearance and hide the signs of aging or what they found was appealing according to their standards.
b) throughout the different cultures of the world today, in developed societies we see the phenomenons you describe more and more. However these societies have different values even in the age of globalisation.
In Japan, where people show immense respect to their elders and it's a society with values deeply rooted in Confucius with strict hierarchy and yet there is the epidemic of the parasite singles. A whole generation who shows absolutely no interest in even having relationships not to mention marrying and having families.

This phenomenon has so many factors and roots, it can't be only attributed to a subconsious fear of death or gerascophobia. A huge part has to do with the liberation of women and the economic prosperity.

For the second part, you raise some very interesting questions. I agree that is related in this conversation.
What is it that makes a human , human? Is it the mind and the consciousness enough?

You said

that's because death is the only certainty of life (as we know it) and humanity is tied with the bonds of mortality. And yet humanity has problems accepting this , the only certainty we have we try to deny it or put it out of our minds with all our powers.
And religion is a form of denial too, when it promises an afterlife, a reincarnation or any sort of experience after the END.

If someone accepts as a given that a human means death then certainly aging and thus the body can't be separated from the sense of self and human identity.

However some, like I imagine were the people who want to be frozen, see mortality as a sackle not as a part of their beings. For them human =/= death and thus humanity =/= a body of bones and cells that ages , weakens and dies. The container doesn't matter, what matters is the consciousness , the mind.

And unless we manage to make an encephalic transplant we will not solve this question at all anyway. Because we haven't found where the consciousness resides, but a pretty good guess is the claustrum.

 

The high infant mortality rates skew life expectancy completely. I remember reading that it's not at all remarkable or rare that people live to old age thousand of years ago. I couldn't find the study, but here is an article on it: Link

I think the chances are higher. The routine and much more simple task relative to today allow folks to wonder and contemplate all kind of things. Today, we are often too busy multitasking to even have 5 minutes of quite time or simple single minded tasks that would likely increase one chance of deeper thoughts and reflections. That's my impression.

 

It's true and it continues to skew it. However when you say it wasn't rare depends on what area of the world and at what time you mean. Because in almost every historical age, people were every other decade,not to say year, in war. (with opposite tribes, as slave-warriors, in their kings armies, as paid mercenaries, or being invaded by various conquerors). It wasn't rare that they COULD live at that age, it was rare that they managed to survive to that age. Also, If someone at their 50s got pneumonia or even broke his leg chances were they wouldn't survive much longer, and basic sanitation rules were non existant for prevention either. We have the exact same DNA as the people of the historical times so it's nothing surprising that same as we, they had the potential to reach old age. But they lacked the scientific knowledge and the peace to let them live as long.
The source you provided says

The maximum. The phenotype allowed by our genotype. We had the potential in ancient ages to live as long as we do today, because genetically we are exactly the same.

Exactly. And in the ancient years all these were much bigger factors than infant mortality rate. There were no antibiotics and most couldn't even afford to feed themselves well.

I'm sorry but this is bull. Socrates wasn't a typical case. The inclusion here as an example to generalise from is biased to prove the authors points. He was an athenian free citizen and a philosopher. He had the best diet AND medical healthcare possibly provided in his time, because of how many rich athenians respected him.
Furthermore he was also a survivor of the 30 year peloponnesian war and a great warrior. So this supposedly typical example of a 70year old had actually to go through countless battles that had heavy casualties to manage to reach that old age. Too many other young men of his generation did NOT survive.

Well one big factor is time. How much free time do you think the farmers had? Before modern equipment when everything had to be done by hand?
It's no wonder that all the philosophers of the ancient times had that as their job. They weren't farmers or sailors who had philosophy as their hobby/second job.
Another huge factor is education. Education opens the mind. When someone can't read as most people couldn't ,then it takes an exceptional intelligence and an exceptional character to doubt what the society delivers to you as a given. Like myths,religion or traditions.

Also when I read this I thought of Celine (an existential author) where in his magnus opus The Journey to the end of the Night, had his protagonist work in a factory in post WW2 new york. The tasks were simple and there was a routine. But the repititive tasks instead of giving the opportunity for contemplation made him feel empty ,useless and aimless. The lack of purpose made his mind devoid of productive thought and put a burden on his psyche.

 

You see it more often in cities and it's a generational thing. Millennials fall under that pattern because of the economy and lack of good entry jobs out of college. Generation X, the previous generation, are more self reliant and couldn't have thought of moving back unless they desperately needed it.

I'll concede to being too critical of American culture. The way I see it, marketing has been advanced to a science by American/British influences to take innate human qualities and behaviors such as vanity, envy, duty, and responsibility and promoted a distorted view of what independent urban living is like and should be. To be a success, not only do I need a car but also the best car for my life stage. It promotes a lifestyle of overconsumption and waste that other cultures pick up when they industrialize, such as China or parts of Europe.

Living in large modern metropolises isn't a new phenomenon in the past, but it's a common one today. American consumerist culture is an unsustainable way of life and definitely one that doesn't need to be emulated, but is treated as the template for modern living in many other countries.

So maybe not the "whole capitalism" but a major subset in it that largely influences what consumers buy and value.

I agree though, that there are many underlying roots and factors into why different cultures behave the way they do.

There are different ways to slice this, but I'll begin with a generalistic analogy. If your soul is like a liquid, then it'll take the shape of whatever size the container is in. That shape is the outward representation of the soul.

As I progress through life, I could despise how my body is slowly beginning to decline and take that as part of my identity and attitude (that bald, wrinkly, liver spotted, toothless guy), or I could accept it as a natural stage of life and move beyond the feeling of powerlessness. Some never forget some of their physical scars. Others have to readjust from limb or bone injuries or chronic pain.

In meditation, the paths towards clearing and understanding your mind better is to allow it to listen to what your body is telling you and how your subconsciousness reacts to it. Even if the "thinking mind" and the "doing mind" are still aspects of a conscious soul, that's part of the blueprint of how a human being's brain work.

The new container, whether it be an android body, the internet, or a different animal changes that. It slowly alters the soul because a big part of survival is learning to adapt to your body...its internal responses, the way it moves, how it reacts to different things like cold ,dark and stormy weather or pressure under fire.

There are consistent stories about heart transplant patients having personality changes and quirks similar to the heart donor. The idea that cells have "memories" hasn't been proven, but I would think there's some black magic in there like those transplanted cells sending signals to other parts of the body in anticipation of something like nicotine, alcohol, stress in the form of cortisone, or insulin.

Then there are other chilling things like Alzheimers or mentally ill who need drugs like valium to function as an integrated part of society.

That opens up thoughts and questions like if you were to take two snapshots of the same mentally ill person, one without valium and one after treatment, would you get the same soul after you transplant them?

Maybe you treat the insane transplant with valium or something equivalent, does that reach similar outcome?

Would it be so bad if consciousness was an elaborate illusion? I guess maybe for the machines that are designed and wired differently than their creators.

 

Except that doesn't work.

 

For all the people who've been wondering about the origin of the "virus" from The Walking Dead, look no further.

I know this is technically a serious conversation, but is it really?