The left ascends to power in Greece, creating uncertainty and hope

It's funny that you guys complain about banks having poured more money into something. As far as I know, it takes two to agree on a loan contract. Nobody forced money on anyone - they wanted that money. They have already gotten off paying hundreds of billions back. Again, the left has a very paternalistic view of the world, as if the Greek were just objects, not actors in this. If I go to my bank and tell them I want a loan, then the bank gives me a loan, then the "greedy bank has poured money on me"? No. They wanted money to keep their sick economy running. Should the bankers not have given it? In hindsight, no, they shouldn't have. But you leftists would have been screaming bloody murder - "why do they let the Greeks bleed out dry" - if the banks hadn't given money. Your view of the world is edged in stone anyway: Banks: evil. "The poor" (in this case Greece): Poor victims. It's ridiculous. The truth is that the poor in both countries are paying for the greed of the elites (in Greece) and some banks (such as Goldman Sachs) (in other countries) and the stupidity of the politicians who let it all get that far.

 

Is it possible that you aren't as knowledgeable about the subject as you think you are? Is it possible that you aren't 100% correct. I have not taken a stance other than thanking Northside for his informative post regarding sovereign default and you respond that it's laughable to do so. Do you not agree with any counterpoint? Perhaps you are just stubborn. You can make valid points and still be stubborn and wrong in other aspects. It doesn't matter that you have a bachelor's from Germany or that there are PhDs or published International Relations researchers ITT (which there are). Anyhow, none of this matters...it's a poo-flinging forum anyways...back to the poo flinging.

 

I didn't have anything positive to add so I really refrained from commenting. I do have a question that I'd like to ask in all seriousness ATW/SJC.

You obviously know what you're talking about (on most subject matters you comment on), so why do you throw insults around/ make condescending remarks so much? I don't remember you doing it a couple of years ago...

 

No. And no.

 

How exactly was Greece's debt imposed on them? Are you saying they didn't spend this money?

SMH if this is the simplistic way certain people are looking at this.

 

"You leftists"? Are you implying that I am a leftist?

Look, while your view is extremely simplistic in this type of situation, fundamentally you are correct on a basic level. So let's keep it simple. Are the Greeks to be blamed for this? Sure, they are at fault. But you cry foul that hard working Germans have to pay taxes to fund the unsustainable Greek lifestyle yet you place ZERO blame on your banks who knowingly broke rules and invested more money than they could afford into the high-yield debt. And a huge reason for what is now happening, which is extreme for a situation such as this based on historical defaults, is in part to protect your banks.

You place zero blame on the banks, so let's simplify this with an example. Visa is now backstopped by the US Government. Because they realize that the US Gov't will bail them out for any hyper-aggressive and not exactly legal lending practices, they target a college kid with a credit card. They give the kid a $5,000 credit limit with a 30% APR, as they realize that while the kid probably won't be able to pay it all off (A knowing risk they take for the ridiculously high APR they will get), they give him the credit anyway. Let's just state that the federal regulations are that you cannot give a limit of more than 2x annual income.

Fast forward 6 months and sure enough, the kid has maxed out his credit limit. Visa then says, "Well, we are getting 30% on the $5k and while it is unlikely that he will ever pay this back, let's up it to $10k." 6 months later he has maxed out again and they up it to $30k, even though the kid's annual income from his college job it $10k per year (rule broken). The dumb kid keeps maxing out and spending and Visa keeps upping his limit above what is allowed as they get a high return on the payments he does make and accrue a ton of potential income in interest.

Finally, the kid states that he cannot possibly pay this off and in an effort to protect VISA, who has given him a lot more credit (even knowing he probably wouldn't ever pay it all back...a risk they willingly took even broke rules to do it due to the high interest), the US Government decides to bail the kid out in an effort to protect VISA and the US taxpayers essentially fund it.

Is VISA at fault for continuing to up the kid's credit limit knowing he would continue to spend the money? Should the US taxpayers just be pissed at the kid (clearly the easiest manner to place blame as the kid spent the money)? Or should they also say, "Hey, VISA, you broke the rules and foolishly continued to up the kid's credit line because you were greedy and wanted that 30% return and didn't care because in the end, you knew the federal gov't would bail the debt out to make sure you were okay at the expense of the hard working American people?"

I think you would blame VISA for their greed and the kid for being a dumbass.

Your attitude (from what I have read in this thread only) is that the kid deserves to be punished above and beyond him simply filing for bankruptcy and harsh additional measures should be placed upon him. And VISA did nothing wrong and deserves zero blame even though a big reason why the US Gov't bailed the kid out was to protect VISA.

So yes, Greece is at fault. But it isn't like the banks are innocent victims and what is happening is helping the banks out

 

I think the title under Around the World's name should be renamed "hard-working German factory worker".

 

He gives an excellent example, ATW. The hypothetical he used actually takes place every day here in the States. Don't the banks bear some responsibility? Sure, the previous Greek governments were wildly irresponsible for many years, but that doesn't mean the average Greek understood what was going on. My guess is that the majority were shocked when it came out that their country was essentially bankrupt, and they've paid a very heavy price for the actions of several Greek governments, if what I've read is accurate. What about the banks who, using Blake's analogy, were enablers? Many people in this country are still quite angry that the banks responsible for the financial collapse we're finally coming out of got what I consider a slap on the wrist. Who's in jail?

 

You are correct. I was last there on the islands 3 years ago and there seemed to be no effect from a tourist point of view.

For that matter we spent about three days in Athens and it was was lovely also. News reports make it sound like a demonstration in one square means the whole city is being tear gassed.

Among other things when I hear the recent news it makes me want to go back.

 

I love it. There's something about the light on the islands that is surreal. I still remember being on Mykonos in '71 in April, before it became what it is now, and there was a Japanese photographer, a large entourage doing things at his beck and call, a couple of makeup people, and one beautiful Japanese model. They were taking shots of her face for makeup ads. I asked why they were on Mykonos, why they were doing this on a Greek island, and the photographer smiled and said, "for the light." I had a room on the second floor of a family's house overlooking the Mediterranean, all white washed and with a small balcony. Price? 50 cents a night. I'm not making that up.

 

No, I was just responding to several posters at once. I haven't seen you make many posts in the D&D. I generally like your posts.

Actually, in the very post you quoted, I say

I wouldn't call that zero blame. But I was responding to several people who place 100 % of the blame on everyone except those who took the money and are not paying it back, so naturally, I will take a counter position.

Correct.

Again, that is not true, see above.

Correct. But I was responding to people who were ONLY blaming VISA (to stay with your example), so I was pointing out that the dumbass has - in my view - at least as much of the blame to take. You are certainly right that both have to take blame. But it's not true that I placed zero blame on the banks.

No, my attitude is that the kid shouldn't be allowed to just say "I'm keeping the money and not paying anything back", while continuing to live way above his means and making his buddies promises of showering them with expensive gifts that the kid cannot afford (which is what Syriza is doing), while accusing and slandering those who de facto paid and still pay for his overly expensive lifestyle, and already planning to take more money from them, so he doesn't have to change that lifestyle.

No, I would also blame VISA (see above). But I was making a counterpoint to people who were ONLY blaming VISA.

Correct. I agree with you (except that you missed that I am not saying there is zero blame on the banks/VISA).

 

Sorry, just saw this post.

My answer: I am just trying to conform to the rules imposed upon us by the forum description .

 

Spoiler

 

LOL all that work! Have to give you props for the effort. It's pretty obvious that I control your thoughts and dominate your emotions...for you to make such an effort.

 

Please leave your family out of this.

 

By the way, in case our resident leftists have not noticed, the leftists in Greece are forming a coalition with a right-wing nationalist, antisemitic and racist party called ANEL.

Also, Syriza is deeply anti-semitic itself (glynch rejoices). The new finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has in the past questioned Israel's right to exist, has applauded suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and so on.

So basically, they elected a bunch of glynchs in Greece - no basic understanding of economics, grossly anti-semitic, class warfare, blame everything on everyone else (especially Israel, the USA and in Greece's case, the EU), no personal accountability, etc.

It's kind of like a Greek Chavez regime, just without the oil. They are also already cuddling up to Russia, and aligning themselves with Russian right-wing nationalist and supremacist ideologues like Aleksandr Dugin.

 

http://syriza.net.gr/index.php/en/p...s-that-which-you-were-never-told-about-greece

 

No credibility, son. Just want to name call, hysterically complain about the left and engage in crude guilt by association. Haven't followed the past few posts. Are you losing another argument?

You might be right about Varoufakis, for all I know, but put up some proof or shut up. Given your history we certainly can't take your word on this matter.
I suspect your attempt at smearing the guy is just the same old song that if you are not a Zionist i.e. for a colonial settler state for Jews in which only they have full human and civil rights, you are somehow an anti-Semite.

 

Sorry to derail the thread on Greece with replying to ATW and his hysterical charges of anti-semtism.

Since I knew ATW would not try to back up his name calling about the Varoufakis as an anti-semite, I googled for five minutes. Not surprisingly my prediction about ATW's name calling was correct.

Here's from a blog he used to write.
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2012/12/0...ly-by-klaus-kastner-with-a-rejoinder-from-me/
************
Klaus mentioned the spat between two men that I admire immensely: Simon Wiesenthal, the celebrated Nazi hunter, and Bruno Kreisky. I wish the two of them had not exchanged such virulent phrases and insults. Wiesenthal kept us all on our toes, unearthing the way that Nazis were managing to slip into normal life in a bid to escape punishment and to render Nazism innocuous. Kreisky gave himself the task, mentioned in the previous paragraph, of using his Jewishness in order to heal Austrian society and to ensure that Nazism would never return (e.g. by eliminating mass unemployment).

I believe that the clash between the two men stemmed from (a) the great difference in these roles that each had adopted, and, importantly, (b) another, deeper and more violent clash that was brewing in the postwar period amongst Europe’s Jews; namely, the clash between Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews.

This is, of course, not the place to delve deeply into the Zionist issue. Suffice to say that Wiesenthal was a Zionist and Kreisky was not. Unlike the Zionist movement, Kreisky believed strongly that European Jews should not seek refuge in the creation of a nation-state in Palestine, by treating its Arab population as a non-people to be expelled violently, but that they should seek safety and their rightful place within their own European societies.

In this sense, Kreisky belonged to a group of internationalist, non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist Jews, which included Albert Einstein and Hanna Arendt. Their view of themselves, as Jews, was that Jewishness is not a racially based identity (of blood and land) but a cultural and spiritual one that does not need the full panoply of a state, with borders, armies etc., in order to preserve itself.

So, when he sometimes said that Jews are not a nation, or even a well defined race of people, he was proclaiming his Jewishness as a cultural notion, in sharp contrast to the Nazi-leaning view of a people as constituted by blood and soil.