The Big Negative of Integration

No thanks. I actually give the argument more credit than most respondents here do. People perform to their peer group, generally. Its why I like working at a company with smart, professional people -- it make me be better. It was the same when I was in school, I worked harder and performed better because of my peers. If you're a poor black kid at the neighborhood school, your peer group doesn't perform well because they are all dealing with the distresses of poverty, and the performance is normalized across everyone there. If the kids can't get a good education, they aren't likely to have as much success as adults. You also won't end up knowing people who go to good universities or start their own businesses, get into investing, get into politics, or many other useful things to do with your life and it defines the frame of what you will think is possible in your own life. You also don't learn from the environment the memes that can make you successful in those endeavors. Even if you have the book learning, you aren't exposed to the lingo, the lifestyle, etc you need to navigate these unfamiliar worlds. So yeah, having those successful people in your community will make a difference. I doubt it is much different in white poverty, btw. If you live in some rural part of nowhere, the high achievers move to the city to get a real job and the people who are left miss out on the example they set.

But, I say no thanks because it isn't the responsibility of black people to help other black people just because they're black. Americans should helps Americans. Houstonians should help Houstonians. But I don't think you have this extra burden because of the color of your skin. Blaming middle class blacks for enjoying their success in not a good recipe. The other thing I would say is that living in close proximity isn't the only way to build community. You have churches, schools, arts, and civic associations. Just because you live somewhere without exemplars of success does not mean you can't associate with them in any facet of your life. Now, if you want to live in a poor neighborhood to help poor blacks, do it. I think you can be a good role model. But you can also do that by being active in your church or joining organizations where you're going to interact with the people you want to help. But I don't expect and don't think you should expect middle class black people to make more sacrifices to help other black people. It isn't fair to put that expectation on them because of their skin. White people who are so inclined can do this too.

 

I can agree on that. But not just for the black people. Its incumbent on Americans, generally, to help.

 

So pgabriel, when you imply that when blacks stay in the same community, they generate their own small businesses like mom and pop grocery stores, that is better for the black community? That is the pinnacle of a black man? Running a grocery store or a barber shop?

So a black child who wants to strive to be an Aerospace engineer( I don't know how many aerospace engineering positions are in Harlem) is a bad role model because he isn't going to stay in his home town?

 

nay, it is a waste of time

 

Because proffesions like engineering requires you to expand your employment opportunities nationwide... Sometimes world wide.

Very few engineers regardless of their race stay in the hometown they were raised in. That is the case with most proffesional jobs.

Also, your premise is that that black individuals who are role models are the business owners who stay in the community. You have explictly stated this. That means those who strive to be more than a barber shop owner and want to expand their horizons past their hometown are not the role models you were looking for.

 

What is the name of the episode you watched so I can see if I can find it. I am curious to see the discussion. The only episodes I saw when I googled appeared to be from 2008-2009.

 

It has everything to do with your premise as your premise is centered around a desire to keep black individuals who are good role models within their community instead of leaving their hometown. In today's context that is exactly what you are asking them to do. You would rather them start small low skill level businesses than achieve higher goals because that would require them to move.

Again, that is the case with any race and almost any high skill level profession. There is a reason why the derogatory term "townie" exists and its a term used mainly towards white high school graduates or dropouts who never left their home town, at least here in Massachusetts.

 

What is the subject here? Middle class blacks aren't allowed to move some place else? They should just stay in the same community they grew up in, especially if its an all black community?

What if middle class blacks moved to another middle class black community? Is that acceptable?

 

I didn't say anything about ghettos.

 

Something like Langston Hughes “Negro Ghetto”, 1931 never existed, then?

You are wrong. Segregation is the main cause of “urban ghettos” forming in the early 20th century. The great migration saw blacks move to cities and whites move to suburbs. These areas saw racist practices restrict businesses and create unfair housing which lead to an increase of poverty and urban decay.

After WWII manufacturing was the main source of urban black employment. In the 60’s these manufacturing jobs were almost all gone, this led to scondary employment opportunities (stores and the like) diminishing too. Jobs changed to being more specialized and needing more than a high school degree where whites had the edge.

I would say these reasons are a way more important factor and had nothing to do with integration.

But, yes, the crack epidemic crated the modern concept of ghetto.

You can read much more about all of this. It has been a big field in sociology.

 

Even if we strip race out of it (we can put it back in after this post), we do have a funny and not-altogether-healthy dynamic in America in which people are often striving to live in the 'better neighborhood.' You graduate from college and get a real job, so you go buy a starter house. You get a better job and you've built some home equity, sell that starter house and buy a more expensive one. You have kids, gotta sell that house and find the right neighborhood with the right school and a good environment for kids. We (at least in my circles) generally are not content to commit to the community we live in. Instead of making of neighborhood better, we find the neighborhood that makes us better. My parents bought their house 40 years ago for a pittance when they had no money. Now they are well off, retired, living a life of leisure, and they live in the same house even though they probably have 10 times the wealth (if not 1000 times) of their neighbors. But I don't do that and I don't know many people that do.

 

You don't know what you are talking about with this.

 

You have one school district where almost 100% of the kids goes to college with many going to top tier schools and you have another that have 25 to 30% of the students do not graduate from high school, where would you want to send you kids to? This is actually two different school district around where I live.