What I think is this: If it would take a talent like Dragic to get Daryl Morey to consider trading Terrence Jones then Daryl clearly has a very high opinion of Terrence Jones. What I think is that Daryl didn't want to trade DMo not knowing for sure what the health of both TJ and Dwight would be going into the play-offs. Dragic is a great point guard that would fill a position of serious need on the Rockets. If the Rockets had managed to get Dragic without trading DMo then I think we would all have viewed that as a win. Having said that. If TJ's health was a known factor, Daryl Morey may very well have preferred trading DMo over trading Terrence Jones. With a healthy Dwight the Rockets would be better with Dragic and losing one of either DMo or TJones IMO. With Dragic as the starting PG I would gladly give up one of DMo or TJones as long as the player I kept was healthy. Did the Rockets actually offer TJones in a trade? I don' know and I don't know if cyberx actually was implying that he was actually offered or if Phoenix just thought he could be had. Either way it doesn't matter and doesn't mean that Daryl doesn't highly value TJones.
Fair enough. Here's what I think. Morey values DMo over Jones because DMo is a 7-footer with demonstrably more shooting skills than Jones. Morey feels like DMo's upside is higher. That's what I think.
And I have zero problem with you saying that and I would admit that there is merit in that thought process. The problem is that it does nothing to demonstrate that DM does not highly value TJones. It does nothing to demonstrate what DM thinks of TJones ceiling, only that he thinks DMo is a better fit for the team. Nothing wrong with that.
So, in your lunch meetings with Morey, Morey expressed that if Jones were healthy he's more valuable than DMo?? You don't have to answer that one. I totally understand if you defer. Morey is more intimately acquainted with Jones physical condition than anybody here. He knew where Jones was in his recovery at the deadline. If DMo and Jones were even close to the same value in Morey's mind he would have offered up DMo. I think fans have a tendency to look at the short term way too much. A guy has a run of games over a month where he looks great and too many fans think he's the next big thing without considering the circumstances. Nothing has changed with DMo over the last couple months since Dwight has been out except his value has been further enhanced. He's broken out this year. He looked great playing next to Dwight. Now he's holding down the middle for us in Dwight's absence. He's shooting something like 42% from 3 since January 1. Take DMo off this team right now and we're in trouble. But we've ran 9-4 with both Dwight and Jones inactive, matching our winning percentage for the season with both guys playing when they've played. Morey knows all this and more. If he values Jones as a future All-Star then he values DMo even more than that.
Do you think that if Morey really felt like Jones ceiling was extremely high that he would be willing to give him up in trade over DMo if he thought DMo's ceiling was lower than Jones'? Morey has consistently said and acted in a matter of reaching for the stars. Drafting Royce. Trading for TWill. Because he felt they had high ceilings. He's willing to go bust getting guys with high ceilings. It makes no sense to me to believe that Morey would be willing to trade even a dinged Jones over DMo if Morey felt Jones had a higher ceiling if healthy. And especially with Morey knowing the health and recovery of Jones intimately.
No one knows how Morey values each player because it will chnage depending on who he might be trying to acquire and the status of the current roster. While you are still speculating that Jones was offered in a deal (Cyberx just said the Suns regret not getting Jones, not that he was offered), the reality is that in the western conference you can't afford to trade either player unless making the team demonstrably better via that trade. Jones and DMo are on controllable cheap contracts, you don't just give those away. Morey's dream would be if Jones were offered a 4 year deal for $20 million. Jones is the perfect Moreyball player. Great within 5 feet of the basket and can legitimately shoot a three (30% from three is better than 35% from mid-range). If all he does is hustle, clean up the garbage, and hit the occasional three from the croner then he is a very good player for us. That is also the kind of player that will be valued elsewhere in the NBA if on the open market. You will proclaim you know all by saying Whiteside finally delivered but ignore every other statement that has proven false. People would take you much more seriously if you try to at least be open to other opinions instead of sticking to your guns till the bitter end.
I think it depends on what he knew about TJ's health. Maybe he thinks TJ's ceiling is higher but not so sure about his health. If you don't know about TJ's health and you don't know about Dwight's health then you are not going to trade the one quality big that you have (DMo) if you are trying to win a championship this year.
So here's an admittance for you (since some of you think I'm unwilling to admit my mistakes). You are right. I have flip-flopped on DMo over the last couple years...several times. No doubt about it. (By the way, I already confessed this here months ago.) DMo has been an enigma to me and I have been very disappointed with him up until this season. But......DMo was not handed the starting PF job in training camp last season the way Jones was. And at that point in time NEITHER player had done anything of merit to earn the starting job. McHale simply picked Jones for whatever reason. But McHale didn't pick Jones because Jones earned the starting slot. He picked Jones because he had to have a starting 4 man. Go back and look at their play. Neither player distinguished themselves and both players looked very pedestrian. IF McHale had picked DMo at that time and DMo had played out last season with the starters...we'd be having the reverse conversation here. I'm confident DMo would have looked every bit as good as Jones playing next to Dwight and Harden last season....just as good as he has looked just as good this season playing next to Dwight and Harden as Jones looked last season playing next to H&H. DMo is a starting 4 and a backup 5 in this league on a good team. He's a starting 5 on a mediocre team. IF DMo is playing the middle when we get to the playoffs we are going to have a tough time winning a series. Because DMo is undersized at the center position. And his rebounding (the last part of his game that he needs to improve) still isn't good even at the 4 spot, much less the 5 spot. (However, DMo has shown drastic defensive improvement in his defense and his shooting, two areas that Jones simply has not improved in enough to this point. And that speaks to the difference in their ceilings.) Jones on the other hand is a backup 4 on a good team and a possible starting 4 on a mediocre team. He's slightly under-sized at the 4. Him and DMo are starting in combination right now and we are surviving. But the playoffs is a different animal. If him and DMo are starting for us in the playoffs we are going to struggle to win a first round series. Because Jones is undersized at the 4 and a total mismatch against us at the 5 in a playoff series. So.....I'm not sold out on DMo at this point just as I'm not sold out on Jones. If both players were restricted free agents today.....which they will be restricted free agents next summer.....I would bet DMo gets somewhere around a 4/50 offer and Jones probably a 4/30 offer. DMo may get even more than 4/50. And Jones may get an offer exceeding 4/30. But they'll probably be somewhere in that relation. Because DMo is a 7-footer with advanced post-up skills and a much better half-court offensive floor game than Jones. And by next summer those numbers will have changed somewhat with the cap growing tremendously. For me to be sold out on DMo as a long-term keeper I'm going to have to see him block out consistently against other power forwards and put in better rebounding effort against centers. IMO it's probably mostly technique. He needs to lower his center of gravity...and get a little bit stronger as well. But I can see DMo doing that. I can see DMo improving his rebounding skill much easier than I can see Jones improving his jump shooting efficiency. All those factors....lead me to believe that DMo is the superior player and the superior asset whether on the court or in trade talks. Because DMo is a much rarer breed, a 7-footer with post-up skills and now improved shooting and defensive skills. That's a much, much rarer skill set combination than a 6-9 athletic player that can finish. Doesn't mean Jones is a bad player. He's not a bad player. Can I write that for you 100 times so you finally understand what I'm saying here. Jones is not a bad player. He's just a much more common player to acquire (through draft and trade) than DMo is at this point in time.
I have never proclaimed to know all airdough. I only know what I know. And I'm plenty open to opinions and basketball discussion. I wished we'd keep it there but guys like you want to make it about me instead of the content. By the way, I'm not tooting my horn one bit on Whiteside. I wished we'd stop talking about him. It's over. It's history. Can't do anything about it. I'm all about finding the next Whiteside type value player. Only thing I'll say in my defense about Whiteside was I endured the same schmear campaign while promoting Whiteside as a player that we should sign to a minimum deal. I answered all the personal attacks with basketball reasoning and the vast majority of posters poo-pooed the whole thing. Makes no difference to me the personal attacks. I just think they're stupid and a waste of bandwidth when we can actually talk basketball and our team which is why we're here. We're all fans....supposedly.
It would be so easy to shut you down. I'd lose a good friend in the process though and you aren't worth that. I told you I've said all I can say.
Jopat now trying to argue with Batman over what Morey is thinking. hhhmmm(.........Grabs popcorn) This should be good. Spoiler
I didn't say he did or didn't and anyway that's always changing. I'm not betraying our conversations except to say that I talk to him regularly and you don't. And you have been wrong so incredibly many times according to my regular conversations with him it's silly. You think he's a role player that's destined to be a so-so player. Based on what he's doing at 23 LOL. Morey doesn't and neither does anyone that's been paying attention to his career. Personally I'm pretty sure you don't know anything about what Morey thinks. But I'll give you a chance to prove you do. Who did Morey consider to be our third best player at the beginning of this season? Who did he consider to be our third best player last season? I won't answer those questions but I will tell you if you're right or wrong. If you guess right I'll cut you some slack. If not, I'll follow my better angels and say my final goodbye to you. You're like Harden holding out the ball to a defender. Except that you're not skilled so you don't get the foul and you don't hold the ball. It's very hard for me not to take any ten of your comments and strip the ball from you. But it's what I have to do. I'll give you credit; you're good at trolling. You've got me wanting to share confidences just to shut you up. But I can't and won't do that. Let's see how you do with third best Rocket going into the last two seasons.
Morey was promoting Jones as the 3rd best player on this team since Jones started putting up numbers last season, Batman. That's pretty common knowledge. He's told it to Tad, Kevin, and many others. Probably including you. That's a sales job, Batman. A sales job. All the while he was saying that he was trying to trade Terrence. Know why? Because even IF he actually believed Terrence was the 3rd best player on the team he knew he wasn't good enough to be the third superstar on this team. I'm happy for you that you get to talk to Morey on a regular basis. But I'm not impressed. I'm sure Morey's a great guy to talk to. But I wouldn't care to talk with him except in a professional relationship. He's the team's GM. His job is to promote and talk up our talent. Terrence does have superstar potential. So what. So does a hundred other players on rookie contracts. But potential doesn't equal destiny. Morey also knows career arcs and has all the analytics that help him determine what a player is actually going to becomes based on what he's done his first season and his age, what he does his second season and his age, and what he does his 3rd season and his age, and on down the line. Ask him to show you that analysis. He won't show it to you Batman. Not the true analytics of player projections. He may show you some one-sheet white paper analysis that is simply ONE ASPECT of future player progression projections that is somewhat favorable to Terrence. But he won't show you the totality of the analytical evidence that he has that gives the most accurate projection of what Terrence's upside and downside is. Because that is part of the secret sauce. Once again, part of Morey's job is to use his analytics to show his own players in as positive a light as possible and to show players that he wants to acquire in as negative a light as possible. He's got to win acquisitions. So no matter how many times a year you have lunch with him you are not going to get the total truth out of him on how he feels about any player. That doesn't mean he's a liar and he's lying to you. Simply put, he's only going to parse to you the truth that is favorable for him to parse to you. One more point for your consideration. Analytics have a beginning and end to them. Morey's analytics showed that JVG should have played Deke over Yao. But Morey wasn't for that. Instead of JVG saying, "You either believe this s..t or you don't.", JVG should have said..."where's the rest of the analysis that tells you that Yao should play over Deke? Because there's no way you wouldn't be telling me to play Deke over Yao if everything actually points to Deke being the better player." And a final point: Last season DMo put in a trade request some time before the trade deadline. Since you talk to Morey..what are some of the better trade offers he got for DMo? If you haven't asked him, why don't you? They didn't trade DMo because they allegedly couldn't get value for him. LOL. Well, if you know some of the trade offers that were there for DMo then you will see what kind of value Morey was stapling to DMo at that time when DMo was still riding the pine and not playing a single minute. Morey could have substantially upgraded last year's team by trading DMo before the deadline and keeping Jones. But he didn't do it. He tried to trade both guys at that time. Which player did he have better trade offers on? You don't have to answer that here. I know that will tell too much if you know about some of the offers he had for DMo and you tell it here. That's too close for comfort for me to even let go of. So words only say so much. What a guy actually does and doesn't do says a whole lot more.
Paul Millsap has made a hell of a career out of cleaning up, finishing around the rim against bigger defenders, hustling, rebounding, and hitting the occasional outside shot. As I believe JVG says, "He's an all-star at what he does". TJ isn't there yet, but with enough time, I definitely think he can be at least that good if he isn't already. (with less MPG, and less usage, he still has a similar PER at the PF spot. Jones is also producing at a higher rater overall than Millsap did in his first 4 seasons). Jones might not be 7 foot tall with a wicked jump shot, but the guy has proven now for 2 years that he can be a very good player at what he does already (first step at becoming a great NBA player is to first carve out a niche), and he's only 23 years old. Not to mention he has an insanely elite talent of being able to rebound and push the ball in transition which is something that made bigs like Barkley, Lamar Odom, Josh Smith, etc. such incredibly talented and sought after bigs. That one skill, that seems minor, is such an important tool for GM's and coaches in the modern NBA that want to play with pace. There are about 4 good bigs in the league that can do that skill.
