Tayshaun Prince becoming a Pistons lifer driven by Joe Dumars’ comfort, not vision

By Dan Feldman • 3:52 pm • December 8, 2011

Since Isiah Thomas, just two men have play more than six seasons and spent their entire career with the Pistons:

Joe Dumars and Tayshaun Prince.

Those two just decided the latter will remain in the club.

In many ways, Prince is the prized player of the Dumars era. He’s the only 2004 championship starter the Pistons drafted, their best pick since Grant Hill and Dumars’ first successful first-round pick after taking Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White his first two years. Prince was an Olympian, but never an All-Star – a strange dichotomy that exists only because Prince became known as the NBA’s best role player. That’s the type of recognition Detroit fans love.

I’m sure Dumars, one of the most beloved athletes ever in this city, sees some of himself in Prince – a pro’s pro whose quiet reputation is probably a bit overstated. In reality, both are more extroverted than they typically appear. They’re both extremely intelligent. They both overcame getting drafted lower than their college production probably warranted.

It’s hardly a coincidence Prince has survived five coaches and 51 teammates in Detroit.

The boss loves him.
Fair contract

Four years and $27 million is hardly a ridiculous salary for a player of Prince’s caliber. He scores in a variety of ways and has become equally comfortable as a first option as he was as a fourth option in the Pistons’ heyday. He rebounds well and passes well, too. His defense has fallen off a bit in recent years, but last season represented a significant defensive uptick.

Paying a player like that fewer than $7 million per year makes sense relative to other NBA contracts.

Simply, he’s a good player. Acquiring good players is difficult, and teams rarely (and usually wisely) allow good players just to walk away. Keeping a good player for fair cost makes even more sense.

If Prince continues to produce at a high level, the Pistons could decide on him from a position of power later – trading him if they want to rebuild or keeping him if he’s helping the team win. Right now, Prince, had the upper hand, because he could use 30 teams for leverage against each other.

Given Prince’s age, hefty playoff workload and recent injury issues, there’s a risk his production could fall to the point trading him is a burden. But even if Prince remains capable as a player, this signing could damage the Pistons.
Downside

Prince re-signing will cut into the minutes of Detroit’s young small forwards – Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko and Kyle Singler when he returns from Spain. Playing time is undoubtedly one of the biggest aids to a developing player, and Prince will limit the opportunity for those three to see the court.

In theory, though, Prince could offer something else instead.

Prince is one of the, if not the (and I’d lean toward the), smartest player on the Pistons. His understanding of what to do on and off the court could benefit Detroit’s younger players immensely.

Unfortunately, the “could” might carry too much weight.

Part of being the smartest person in the room is being smart enough to know he’s the smartest person in the room, and I’d be shocked if Prince doesn’t realize that. Is he really committed to sharing his knowledge, bridging the gap between himself and his teammates?

I haven’t seen reports of Prince mentoring younger players the way, say, Ben Wallace has. Maybe he does it just as much, or even more. But from the outside, I’ve seen little reason to believe Prince holds significant value as a mentor.

I’ve seen no evidence Prince holds value as a role model, either.

Not only have the Pistons played poorly the last few years, they’ve acted poorly. That’s not to completely blame the players. Not all of their actions were without cause.

Nonetheless, the team’s attitude has been petty at best, pernicious at worst. Prince has been in the center of the movement.

Here’s my armchair psychology: Prince is a pretty grumpy guy, but winning keeps him on an even keel.

There’s a difference between disliking losing and an inability to handle it in a productive manner. I don’t think Prince falls on the helpful side of that line. That explains why he looked like the perfect team player during the Pistons’ contending years and like a petulant brat in the last few years.

The easiest fix is winning, but for the Pistons, that’s not so easy. They’re years away from winning at the level Prince became accustomed to early in his career.

In the meantime, what signals will he be sending the team’s impressionable young players?
Unnecessary challenge

Life will be more difficult for Austin Daye, Jonas Jerebko and Kyle Singler now. He might not know it yet, but if Lawrence Frank doesn’t turn around what will apparently be the same roster that failed to make the playoffs the last two years, his life will likely be more difficult, too, as a result of this signing.

None of that would happen if Dumars had made the courageous choice: let Prince walk away, maybe getting Chris Kaman in return, maybe getting nothing. But this move makes Dumars and Prince comfortable – Dumars with his apparently favorite player in tow and Prince with contract security through age 35.

Who cares about progress? Comfort ruled the day.

But if Prince’s contract becomes unmovable, if he stunts Detroit’s young players, if his attitude proves counterproductive… well Dumars’ seat will get pretty uncomfortable. Dumars is banking it won’t get to that point, and he might be right. For now, he doesn’t have to worry about it.

The boss has his man.
http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/12/tayshaun-prince-becoming-a-pistons-lifer/
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@daldridgetnt David Aldridge

Prince staying in DET big blow to Clips; he was their top ranked SF. Not only loved his D but thought he could handle being 3rd/4th option.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/12/clippers-wanted-tayshaun-prince-badly/
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Tayshaun Prince signing gets thumbs up from John Hollinger
By Dan Feldman • 9:37 am • December 9, 2011

John Hollinger of ESPN:

I actually don’t have a big problem with this contract. Like Butler and Dunleavy, Prince is 31; unlike those two, he rarely gets injured, and while he’s no longer an A-list defender, his offensive performance has suffered basically no drop-off over the past six seasons. The way Prince plays wouldn’t seem to make him susceptible to sudden decline; he stands two steps off everybody he guards and just uses his length, and offensively he’s mostly a mid-range jump shooter. If he loses a step, you’ll hardly notice.

While the short-term ramifications aren’t terribly exciting — a bad, capped-out team signing a 31-year-old non-star — the Pistons can at least keep this asset for a future trade if nothing else. Players of this age are always a risk, but Prince is about as low-risk as a 31-year-old can get.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2011/12/tayshaun-prince-signing-gets-thumbs-up-from-john-hollinger/

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Back in the DayShaun

by Natalie Sitto on December 8, 2011

When I first heard the news, “Detroit Pistons to sign Tayshaun Prince for 4 years at 27 million dollars” I was stunned. Wasn’t this supposed to be the start of something new? Didn’t we suffer enough during the last few years of doing nothing as far as personnel was concerned? Wasn’t this the year Joe Dumars was going to reward us because he wasn’t handcuffed by the sale and Karen Davidson? Didn’t Pistons fans suffer enough when AI stepped on the court in a Pistons Jersey?

Look, I’m OK with Tayshaun Prince, I appreciate what he did for this team when it was continually contending for Championships, but as you know they are not at the moment. All teams go through transitional stages, all teams have to rebuild and this as we know it is what the Pistons are going through right now.

Did we really need to commit to a 31 year old for 4 years when we are really not in the Playoff hunt?
I want to see what Austin Day can do! I want Jonas to get the bulk of the minutes. I want youth!

The Block

If Tayshaun was clearly the vocal leader as Ben Wallace has suggested, that’s not a good thing. Remember last year? That team walked out! Leaders make sure things like that don’t happen, whether they like the coach or not.

I’m happy that some of you are excited to see the 22 back on court for Detroit, but I see this as nothing more than holding on to the past for way too long.

I am a fan of this team…not its players.

This is me hoping for the best, though I don’t see much good out of it.

http://need4sheed.com/2011/12/back-in-the-dayshaun.html

 

Tayshaun Prince resigning with the Pistons made no sense to me. Prince should have signed with the Clippers.

 

Tom Ziller on Tayshaun Prince's confusing contract

by Matt Watson on Dec 21, 2011 1:04 PM


Tom Ziller's Central Division preview is up on the SB Nation mothership, and I recommend reading the whole thing. Of particular interest, of course, are his thoughts on the Pistons:

The Detroit Pistons picked up Brandon Knight in the draft, kept Rodney Stuckey and Jonas Jerebko on affordable deals and stunningly gave Tayshaun Prince an old Rip Hamilton extension. Oh, and they bought out Rip Hamilton's Rip Hamilton extension. Seems like Joe Dumars is content to repeat the same mistakes. Outside of the Prince deal, the Pistons had a good offseason. Unfortunately, Knight is green as Ben Gordon's wallet, Greg Monroe is still developing and this should be another long season in Motown.

[...] Detroit's Prince deal (four years, $27 million) is something else. Had Prince walked, the Pistons would have lost one of the starters from the No. 27-ranked defense and a 15-point scorer who shoots inefficiently but moves the ball well. Somehow, I think Detroit would have survived. Bringing Prince back on a four-year commitment the same day as the club retained Jerebko is even more egregious; Austin Daye has looked solid this preseason, and now Lawrence Frank will be forced to slot Jerebko and Daye at power forward more frequently to get everyone time, which heaps more defensive pressure on Greg Monroe, who has solid fundamentals but needs some help given his heavy offensive load. By the time the Pistons are ready to make another assault on the East, Prince will be winding down his career. It makes no sense.

Yeah. What he said. But as frustrating as Prince's contract is, I can't help but think there was a handshake agreement that he'd be back all along. Which is ridiculous, because he was a liability four years ago; just imagine what he'll be like four years from now.

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2011/...e-agency-2011-detroit-pistons-tayshaun-prince

 

Tayshaun Prince - Pistons - 4 yrs. $25M

Grade: D

Ironic grade, since Prince no longer plays any. This signing makes absolutely no sense for the Pistons, who should be rebuilding coming off a 30-win season. Joe Dumars defended the re-signing on the grounds Prince deserves to retire as a Piston. Any notion of Prince deserving anything went out the window when he openly boycotted a team practice. In Prince, Detroit will have a still-competent offensive player whose defense will increasingly be a liability as he enters his mid-30s.

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2011/12/20/2646479/nba-free-agents-2011-grades-part-1#storyjump
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Re-Signing Tayshaun Prince is a massive mistake...

by Mike Payne on Dec 8, 2011

"Greg is wide open under the basket, Austin is open in the corner... where's Rip? Screw it, I'll just take a contested jumper."

Duane Burleson - APMore photos »

"Greg is wide open under the basket, Austin is open in the corner... where's Rip? Screw it, I'll just take a contested jumper."


Free agency officially begins tomorrow, December 9th, but the dust has already settled in Detroit. Reports suggest that the Pistons have offered Tayshaun Prince a four-year deal ranging between $27 and $30 million dollars. In a word? Buffoonery. Do you all know what that means? This is a waste of cap-limited resources, a hindrance on youth development, a reward for bad character and a poor investment in an already-declining asset. For a team that needed to break down before it could rebuild, the Pistons just took another step back toward continued mediocrity.

You know what stings so badly about this? Over the last year, Pistons fans have been waiting patiently for the sale of the team, the transition to new ownership and the resulting changes that could lead the team back to relevance. Pistons GM Joe Dumars "had his hands tied" and there was nothing he could do to clean up the mess of a roster he had constructed. Now, in the wee hours before post-lockout free agency begins, the first move of the Tom Gores era happens. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we have all been waiting for.

Filling a $30 Million Dollar Hole Detroit Didn't Have

Our shrewd investor in chief, Mr. Tom "Our job is to challenge Joe" Gores just spent $30 million dollars of Platinum Equity's money to fill a hole the Pistons didn't have. Had Mr. Gores watched Jonas Jerebko start 31 games in place of Tayshaun Prince in 2009-10, he might not have been so generous. The Pistons won 14 of 31 games when Jonas started at small forward, good for a 45% win record. Meanwhile, the team only won 12 of 49 games when Prince started at SF-- good for a 24% record.

If Jonas Jerebko is an injury risk, there's always the team's lottery-caliber draft pick from 2009, Austin Daye. Per minute, Austin Daye gave you roughly 80% of the production Prince did last season for about 20% of the cost. Sure, he's still got plenty of kinks to work out, but nothing tempers warped metal like a trial by fire. Not exercising your liberties with Daye is another risk, as this time next year he could be showing the Pistons what we were missing all along.

Beyond those two, if you need spot-up minutes, don't be afraid to slide Richard Hamilton to the 3. He started 13 games in 2008-09 and performed quite admirably, enough to warrant 8-10 minutes a game behind Jerebko and Daye. Then there's Villanueva, who plays like a girl small forward but runs like a girl big man, good enough for spot up minutes as well.

Tom, I assume your crew at Platinum are not new to a good old cost-benefit analysis. In light of the above, I would be thrilled to see how this appears even remotely justifiable. And if Joe Dumars sold you on it, and is this good at sales in general, perhaps he might be better suited higher up in your organization.

A Waste of Cap-Limited Resources

The Pistons won 30 games last season, and this move reflects a larger investment into the personnel that got us there. For a team in transition, the goal should be to make wise, small-scale investments on upward trending talent. This is an above average contract for a player who is downward trending-- and as I mentioned above, an unnecessary expense. Young, transitioning teams need cap flexibility to grow, to make trades and to supplement the core with free agent signings. By signing Prince, and bringing Detroit's salary profile up to the cap, the youth movement in Detroit doesn't have this flexibility. Although by re-signing Prince, I wouldn't categorize Detroit as a "youth movement" team. The trend here is pointing in the other direction.

Rewarding Bad Character

Detroit had the most toxic locker room in the league last season. There was a group mutiny, a refusal to play by a player or two now and then, oh, and one player even called his coach a buffoon to the press while his teammate was interviewed. Tayshaun Prince would never do that though. Oh wait, yeah he would. Given the fragile nature of morale on a sports team, rewarding this kind of behavior is dangerous. What kind of signal does this send to your team's younger players? "You are more important than the coach. It is okay to refuse orders and talk back. It is okay to talk trash on purpose within earshot of the media. We'll fire the coach and pay you like a king."

A Poor Investment in an Already-Declining Asset

Back in 2007, Tayshaun was the weakest link amongst the remaining group that won the 2004 championship. In the playoff-eliminating rounds of 2007, 2008 and 2009, Tayshaun was the worst player on the court for both teams. He was defending Lebron James in the first and third of these series, Paul Pierce in the second. His defense was abysmal (and understandable to an extent), but what cost Detroit was his complete disappearance on offense when he had a big job on the other end. From the field, Prince averaged 26%, 32% and 24% shooting across each series in which the Pistons were eliminated in those three years. But the Pistons passed on extending Ben Wallace, they traded Chauncey Billups, they let Rasheed walk and were determined to keep Prince around. They gutted the Going to Work crew-- and kept only the junk.

Last season, Tayshaun appeared to have a renaissance, but his increase was only in his career-high usage rate, not his actual production. Tayshaun went from the fourth option years ago to the number one option in 2011. Statistically, the offense went through Tayshaun on a surprising 21% of possessions in which he was on the floor. The script was pretty simple. Stuckey or McGrady would bring the ball up the court and pass it to Tayshaun who was about 15 feet from the basket. Tayshaun would dribble and back his man into position, then hold the ball extended while seconds burned from the shot clock. With a few seconds remaining, Tay would pass the ball only if an older player was semi-open, other wise he'd turn and take a contested jumper. He shot these pretty well, but the team's offense suffered. We coined a term for that here at DetroitBadBoys-- "Isolayshaun". Creative, isn't it.

Last, Tay's wiry frame and finesse game isn't effective in the Eastern Conference. It hasn't been since Lebron hit puberty. He earned his name as a lock-down defender by shutting down guys like Tracy McGrady, Reggie Miller and Kobe Bryant, guys who play with finesse, not muscle-driven penetration and barrel-through-your-defender sensibilities. But that's how things are in the Eastern Conference now. It's not the same in the West, where finesse forwards reign supreme. Tay was built for that kind of play, and would have been a perfect addition to so many teams out West. In Detroit, however, he's a 31-year-old player approaching his twilight whose high usage will only get in the way of an inevitable transition in Detroit. A transition we fans were hoping to see start this summer. Instead, we see more of the same.

Excuse My French, but What the ****?

Over the last four years, the Pistons have drafted five small forwards. Their second-round steal in 2009 was one of the best rookies of that year, and he performed better as a small forward than the man you just contracted for $30M dollars. If you really felt you needed a veteran presence at that position, there were and are other, less expensive options available. Yet for a team that has been in dire need of big men since the original Big Ben moved to Chicago, your priorities are still completely out of touch with reality.

This is what you bought, Tom Gores. You now own a team where the worst players make more than $4 million a year, and the best players make $4 million or less. You're paying a bunch of garbage players the bulk of your salary while the real talent is also the cheapest. We should be more like the Minnesota Timberwolves (facepalm) and David Khan (facepalm), who actually pay their talent lower than the Mid-Level and don't blow $40M+ a year on utter ****ing garbage.

So many of us were so excited about the end of the lockout, the opportunity to bring a change that this team has needed for years. But once again, Joe blew another contract to an aging player who is not going to get any better. This time, it's just salt in the wound for a team that can only heal once we get rid of those horrible contract mistakes he made over two years ago.

See this right here?

"And we’re going to push Joe. I mean he knows that, we already told him that ’we’re going to challenge you every single way, whether it’s right or wrong, we’re going to push you and we’re going to push you hard.’ Because our job isn’t to agree with Joe. Our job is to challenge Joe, and hopefully that will make the outcome better.

Tough talk, tough guy.

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2011/12/9/2622526/re-signing-tayshaun-prince-is-a-massive-mistake

 

WDFN 1130 AM --The Fan

Tayshaun Prince returns--Why?

http://www.wdfn.com/player/?station...cast&program_id=ShepAndSharp.xml&mid=21652408

 

Thursday, December 08, 2011

Insanity Returns to the NBA -- Tayshaun Prince Signs With Detroit for 4 Years and $27 Million!!!!!!

If you said to me that Tayshaun Prince (age 30) had a 4 year and $27 million contract, I would tell you that he was very likely to be the victim of the newly-enacted "amnesty clause" which allows teams to cut players and not have the contract apply against the salary cap.

Instead, what I am forced to tell you today is that the Pistons re-signed Prince to this ridiculous deal:

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/12/8/2621208/tayshaun-prince-detroit-pistons-nba-rumors-free-agency

They did so, despite the other rumor out there that they also signed Jonas Jerebko to a 4 year $16M deal. So, you have two guys -- one of whom is young and one of whom is not. They play the same position. You sign....both!?!? And you sign the older guy to a far bigger deal?
Now, I thought that perhaps I had underestimated the greatness of Tayshaun Prince, so I asked this question -- of forwards between 6'8" and 6'10" who were over 28, who had seasons similar to Prince's year last year, would I sign any of them to a 4 year $27MM contract???

Here is the list of similar-sized forwards who had similar seasons over the past 10 years -- http://bkref.com/tiny/B3yc8. Wow. Would you go 4-$27MM on a 34 year old Toni Kukoc? On a 29 year old Keith Van Horn? On Chris Wilcox? Tracy McGrady? (the last two guys named actually were Pistons last year with Prince -- way to corner the market Joe D.) Donyell Marshall? Monty Williams? I mean, come on.

This is a terrible, terrible signing. Oh, but Tayshaun is a great defender! Since basketball-reference.com has been keeping records of defensive ratings, for forwards who played over 25 minutes a game, since the ABA-NBA merger, only four forwards have logged a defensive rating of over 115. Tayshaun Prince's defensive rating last year puts him in the pantheon of great "defenders" such as Andrea Bargnani, Kiki Vandeweghe, Rashard Lewis, Mike Miller and Don MacLean.

Prince was ranked as the 105th best player in the NBA by the ESPN #NBARank system. That is kind. But even if you accept the claim that he is slightly better than Michael Beasley, do you see an upside to a 4 year deal for a guy who will be 34 at the end of the deal?

The owners spent all of the time on the lockout to turn around and make deals like this?

http://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2011/12/insanity-returns-to-nba-tayshaun-prince.html

 

What was Tayshaun Prince thinking in choosing the Piston over playing in his hometown...