I don't quite see it the same way. First off, walking is not an integral part of golf. The walking rule is a rule that is not related to the fundamental aspects of the game. A similar analogy to me would be the rule in baseball that prohibits the number of protective items a batter can wear while at the plate. The rule is supposed to prevent players from getting strapped in six different pieces of body armor and then crowding the plate because they aren't scared of catching a pitch on the elbow. Wearing armor gives a player a clear advantage, but it doesn't violate the basic fundamental nature of baseball. As such, baseball waives this rule on a regular occasion when a player suffers an injury, they allow them to wear the armor to protect themselves. ------------------ This space currently being renovated. We apologize for the inconvenience.
Supreme Court upholds earlier Martin ruling Disabled golfer Casey Martin has a legal right to ride in a golf cart between shots at PGA Tour events, the Supreme Court said Tuesday. In a 7-2 ruling with implications for other pro sports, the justices ruled that a federal disability-bias law requires the pro golf tour to waive its requirement that players walk the course during tournaments. "We have no doubt that allowing Martin to use a golf cart would not fundamentally alter the nature of the PGA Tour's tournaments," Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in the majority opinion. He said the purpose of the tour's walking rule is to introduce fatigue as a factor that could influence the outcome. But Stevens said Martin's circulatory disorder, which obstructs blood flow to his right leg and heart, causes him greater fatigue even with a cart than is experienced by competitors who walk. ESPN learned that Martin got word of the ruling in a morning phone call from PGA Tour commissioner Tim Finchem. Finchem called Martin to acknowledge Martin had won and say there would be no hard feelings toward Martin. When Congress passed the anti-discrimination law for the disabled, lawmakers intended that sponsoring organizations "carefully weigh" the effect of their rules on the disabled, Stevens said. Granting an exception would "allow Martin the chance to qualify for and compete" in events also open to qualifying members of the public, he wrote. Justice Antonin Scalia wrote the dissent, joined by fellow conservative Justice Clarence Thomas. "In my view today's opinion exercises a benevolent compassion that the law does not place it within our power to impose," he said. Scalia wrote that for the majority, "there is one set of rules that is fair with respect to the able-bodied, but individualized rules ... for talented but disabled athletes." He said the law "mandates no such ridiculous thing." Tour officials said they would "fully review and evaluate" the court's decision, and that Martin would continue to be provided with a cart at any event he entered, as he has been over the last three years. "As we have said from the beginning of this issue, the Tour has the highest respect and admiration for Casey Martin, as an individual and as a competitor," a Tour statement said. "We have believed from the beginning of this situation, however, that the issues involved go well beyond considerations involving an individual player. "Through the lawsuit ... the courts were asked to examine the issue of whether the Tour should be forced to abandon its long-standing requirement that the rules of competition be applied equally to all competitors." Martha Walters, one of Martin's lawyers, said the decision shows that golf tournaments will be governed by the same rules as all other businesses. She called the ruling important "to all people in sports, high school kids, kids at all levels," because their disabilities would have to be considered. The 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act bans discrimination against the disabled in public accommodations, including golf courses and entertainment sites. The law requires "reasonable modifications" for disabled people unless such changes would fundamentally alter the place or event. That law applies to professional sports events when they are held at places of public accommodation, the justices said. The decision upholds a lower court ruling that ordered the PGA Tour to let Martin use a cart. The lower court said using a cart would not give him an unfair advantage over his competitors. Martin has a circulatory disorder in his right leg called Klippel-Trenaunay-Weber Syndrome that makes it painful for him to walk long distances. He sued the PGA Tour in 1997, saying the ADA -- enacted in 1990 -- gave him a right to use a cart during tour events. On Jan. 19, 2000, Martin became the fist PGA Tour member to use a cart in competition. He shot a 4-under-par 68 in the first round of the Bob Hope Classic but wound up missing the cut by three strokes. Last December, on the final day of a qualifying tournament, Martin fell one stroke short of regaining his PGA Tour card. He has full status on the Buy.com Tour. His best showing this year was a tie for 34th in the Louisiana Open April 1. Martin was a teammate of Tiger Woods at Stanford University, and the two used to room together on road trips. Woods has said that Martin sometimes would be in so much pain that he couldn't get up to use the bathroom. Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer have spoken against allowing any player to use a cart in elite competition to accommodate a disability. They have said that using a cart would give Martin an advantage and take away a basic part of the game: the ability to walk an 18-hole course. Nicklaus, playing host to his annual Memorial tournament in Dublin, Ohio, declined immediate comment on the Supreme Court ruling. Jim Furyk, a tour golfer preparing for the Memorial, said he was happy for Martin. "I understand where the Tour's coming from and my heart goes out to Casey," Furyk said. "He's a wonderful person, he's a great guy and a great competitor. I'm happy he gets to go ahead and fulfill his dream. I understood both sides of the story. ... "If I was Casey I would have done the exact same thing. I'm happy for him as a person." Annika Sorenstam, the top money winner on the LPGA Tour, also said she was happy for Martin. "He wants to play golf, he wants to compete and this gives him a chance to do it," she said during practice for the U.S. Women's Open at Southern Pines, N.C. But not all golfers were glad to hear the news. "Anytime you get to ride you gain an advantage, don't you?" said Frank Nobilo, a PGA Tour regular from New Zealand. "I think you do. It's the same reason they try to ban drugs in sports -- because it gives an advantage." The San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled for Martin in March 2000. But the next day a Chicago-based federal appeals court ruled against Indiana golfer Ford Olinger, who sued the U.S. Golf Association for the right to use a cart in U.S. Open qualifying. The appeals court said a cart would change the nature of competition. Among those supporting the PGA Tour in friend-of-the-court briefs were the Ladies Professional Golf Association and the men's pro tennis organization, the ATP Tour. The Justice Department backed Martin, as did disability-rights groups including the National Association of Protection and Advocacy Systems and the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund. The case is PGA Tour v. Martin, 00-24. --------- What do you guys think about the ruling? Agree/Disagree? ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here...
I think all of this is incredibly premature anyway. When Martin starts smoking people on the tour, maybe they should cry then. I just don't understand what the big freakin' deal is. Everybody, get in your little carts and speed to the next hole. And, c'mon shanna, you know very well that there is a HUGE difference between running in track or baseball and walking in golf. For every golfer out there who complains about the cart, there are guys who would be happy to see it added. Puedlfor made the first decent comparison I've seen and it is valid. This isn't as much about the act of walking as it is about the equipment used in the game. No one has bothered to address my comparison to the changes in clubs over the years. Give everyone a cart. End of problem. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Have you heard of baseball Jeff? Same deal here if you think about it...from the outside looking in, playing baseball in the major leagues require just hitting right? or are there other aspects involved? (such as walking, running, catching, throwing)...what if casey martin is a homerun specialist coming off of the bench but couldn't jog around the bases to score on his own?...rules require for centuries that you need to touch all 4 bases to get your team a point, even if its over the fence... Imagine that....he could hit the baseball for miles and miles, but will be useless because he cannot trot around the bases...would you like it if the Supreme Court ruled that you are able to use a wheel chair to stroll around the bases to score in the Major Leagues? Or better yet, they don't make him touch the bases, he just gets one run automatically if it goes over the fence...This is again, making MLB change their rules just for one person...same exact scenario... ------------------
Poor analogy. In baseball, you have to run around the bases, its how you score runs. If the Supreme Court ruled that Martin didn't have to put the golf ball in the hole every time before putting his score down on the card, then the analogy would make sense. Because then it would be affecting the very nature of the way the game is scored, but this is not changing that. Also, it would be impossible for Martin to hit a homerun if he was so disabled he couldn't walk around the bases. ------------------ This space currently being renovated. We apologize for the inconvenience. [This message has been edited by Puedlfor (edited May 30, 2001).]
I'm going to run with this baseball analogy. Let's say you're Mark McGwire and the St. Louis Cardinals. In the playoffs last year he couldn't do anything except for hit the ball b/c he was hurt. He could hit the ball fine but they had to replace him whenever he got on base with a pinch runner. He's still hurt now, maybe St. Louis should take Major League Baseball to court saying that McGwire deserves to have an automatic pinch runner. Remember back in elementary school when you'd have someone run the bases for you? Like you get a hit and they take off around the bases, why can't the Cardinals do that with Big Mac? I mean he's got a serious problem with his legs, what's wrong with just having someone run around the bases for him like in elementary school for every time he bats? Seems fair to me, or maybe whenever he hits the ball he can run the bases, but he only has to run to second base for it to count as a run. He clearly can't run as fast as the other players b/c of his disability, why not let him run to 2nd base for a run? I don't think golf is much of a sport, and if everyone can drive around in golf carts, then I'll think it's even less of a sport. It goes right next to bowling and billiards as far as being sports. ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here...
McGwire did hit a homerun last year in the playoffs, and he did round the bases. The problem with that analogy is that rounding the bases is how you score runs in baseball, its the fundamental basis for scoring. If you don't touch all the bases in consecutive order and then get to home, you don't score - no exceptions. Thats why Robin Ventura has the longest single in postseason history. He hit a GW homerun with the bases loaded and his teammates mobbed him between first and second. He never touched home, he never scored. If the Supreme Court had ruled that Martin could take a couple disability do-overs each round when he hit the ball if he hit it bad because his leg was bothering him, or if once he got past a double-bogey he could just put a double-bogey on the scorecard w/o worrying about putting the ball in the hole and move on, because of his disability - then I would see the validity of the argument because its changing the fundamental way in which golf is scored. But this ruling doesn't do that, I still think the "body-armor" analogy fits best. ------------------ This space currently being renovated. We apologize for the inconvenience.
What about letting someone else run for him like back in grade school? Hell even the opposing team can pick the player to run for him. I think that's a fair idea, make the slowest guy on the team run for an injured McGwire. ------------------ Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here...
The slowest guy in the clubhouse is McGwire, healthy or not. The problem is that it still affects one of the basic tenets of game : How you get on base, and thus, how you score. To score you first have to reach base safely, and go around the bases - if you cannot first reach base safely, you cannot score, if you cannot score, you're a worthless hitter. Running to the bases is a fundamental part of baseball. It would be similar to having someone putt for Martin once he got to the greens because he couldn't do it himself. That alters one of the fundamental aspects of the sport. ------------------ This space currently being renovated. We apologize for the inconvenience.
In baseball, you score runs by touching the bases, not necessarily by running or walking...if walking is a necessity in baseball, why do they have handicap leagues were you can use wheelchairs? How do you really know where to draw the line with this ruling? [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited May 30, 2001).]
--walking is essential to MLB, but not baseball in general... Alternative to MLB: Handicap baseball leagues. --walking is essential to the PGA Tour, but not golf in general... Alternative to PGA: Nike Tour Allows Golf Carts... Keep in mind that these atheletes play at an elite level...PGA and MLB filters out these elite athletes from the rest by having many rules...one of them is to walk...if you can't abide by these strict rules, get your arse somewhere else! same **** to me [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited May 30, 2001).]
Maybe they should give him a manual cart that he would have to pedal.....er, wait a sec ------------------
In baseball, you have to run around the bases, its how you score runs. No, you have to get around the bases. You claim that in golf, walking between holes is not the important page --- getting from hole to hole on a cart is just fine. Why not the same philosophy for baseball? Getting around the bases is the important part, so let people wheelchair themselves around, no? If you consider walking fundamentally important to golf, then its the exact same thing. I think all of this is incredibly premature anyway. When Martin starts smoking people on the tour, maybe they should cry then. I just don't understand what the big freakin' deal is. Jeff, are you saying we shouldn't worry about things until the negative consequences already have happened? Like, lets not complain about Bush's environmental policy until after our air and water are ruined? When dealing with the Supreme Court, cases are made on principle and constitutional law. They have nothing to do with the individual. That principle is what people are arguing about. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
I say we sue to get a cart for Cato so his tired ass might be able to pull down a rebound once in awhile.... ------------------
The whole problem here isn't Casey Martin, it is the future ramifications of this ruling. Who gets to use the cart rule? What if Mickelson breaks his little toe? It is difficult for him to walk, but he can strike the golf ball just fine. Does he get a cart? The ruling that no one has mentioned regarding baseball, is that midgets are NOT allowed to play. There is a specific rule (if you are interested do a search on Eddie Gaedel). A midget can perform in all aspects of the game and is extremely difficult to pitch to. Perhaps you would not want one on your roster for the entire season, but he would be a valuable commodity during the September roster expansions. Imagine having a player that would walk almost everytime up. Also, does this open the door for women to compete on the PGA tour AND get to tee off from the red tees? How about another kicker like Tom Dempsey? With the advancement in technology, surely a shoe could be fitted that gives a kicker with a deformed foot a big advantage. It could be argued that he needs that particular type of shoe. Casey Martin is truly an unfortunate story that begs compassion, but so does Kirby Puckett. He was still at the top of his game when he essentially went blind in one eye. Dave Dravecky lost his arm to cancer. J.R. Richard suffered a stroke. Reggie Lewis dies of heart problems. My point isn't that the rules should be changed for these individuals, but that there is unfortunate situations in all of sports. The USGA could have avoided a number of these issues by allowing Martin to ride a cart and to investigate any and all petitioners on a case by case basis. ------------------
bobrek, a guy with a broken toe wouldn't qualify under the ADA. Injury does not equal disability. shanna and others, you've got to look to the reason behind walking during the competition. Unlike in baseball or football, speed is no factor. You can take your sweet time going hole to hole. It is the exhaustion over 72 holes that is complained about: that a cart gives Casey an advantage in terms of remaining fresh by Sunday. But the court specifically ruled based on the assumption that he is more exhausted over the course of a tourney riding from hole to hole than an ordinary golfer is from walking. So, only another golfer who suffered from a similar debilitating condition that exhausted his energy could arguably use this ruling to get their own cart. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
How can you say that? How can anyone say that, except those that are responsible for the preservation of the game, and understand its evolution? Golf is hundreds of years old. It evolved into what it is today. No one can deny that walking 25 hilly miles is physically exhausting. It effects swing performance and thought processes. Thus, it is very much a part of the game. ------------------ Cohen
For the life of me, I cannot get over the fact that these good ole boy golfers think walking is so freakin tough. They don't even have to carry their freaking clubs! Bunch of damn wusses. I bet their real concerned about the caddies who could be out of a job now, aren't they? And it's not like they just go out and walk "6 miles". They walk a few feet, and then STOP forever, then walk again. They spend more freaking time standing around than they do walking. Give me a break. CARRY YOUR DAMN CLUBS, then I may have a little respect for your position. WEAK. Dumbass golfers. Can you tell I hate golf?
It's a temporary disability, and since the law is sort-of vague on accomodations required for temporary disabilities or whether a specific temporary disability is covered under the law, I would think it's still an open question as to whether a golfer with a broken toe would be allowed to use a cart while he was temporarily disabled. A broken-toed golfer may well be covered under the ADA. It would likely have to go through the courts before we could find out, though. (Certainly the DOJ thinks temporary disabilities that substantially limit life activities and that whether those temporary disabilities should be covered under the ADA should be decided on a case-by-case basis. While broken bones would not normally be considered to fall under the ADA protections, the specific circumstances would need to be looked at to know for sure). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
What if you hit a home run? Is speed a factor when you trot around the bases after you hit it over the fence? you can take your sweet ole time...with not really any time limit to touch all four bags...so if you are handicapped and can't touch all 4 bases because of a debilitating condition, can you use a wheelchair to touch the bases instead? Where do you draw the line? [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited May 30, 2001).]
