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Stan Van Gundy agrees with his brother Heat will be great (mention of Wade as Pippen)

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Arnel, Aug 20, 2010.

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Arnel Member

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jevjnd said:

Come on now . The guy was 33 years old with two rookies, albeit good ones, and Barkley playing defense with him instead of Rodman and Jordan. The Rockets never played that brand of defense anyway; their defense was predicated on funneling things to Hakeem, which wasn't what it had been in the past at that point anyway. I do concede that we need that we need to see the finished product, but I totally think that that team could run this one out of the building. They ran a Shaq and Penny magic team out of the building once they got Rodman and Jordan had returned to form, and that team was probably as talented as this Heat team.
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Like I said, I know he was past his prime, but he was clearly overmatched by Kobe than, and this was one year after their last championship. I just don't see that bulls team "running this heat team out of the building". Yeah, a very young Shaq and Penny BEAT these bulls, and lost to them next year. Yes Jordan was only a few months into his return, but he WAS BACK. Too many people act as if Jordan was not there for that series at all. Yes, he was not in 100% basketball shape, but he was there, and he lost the series to Magic. Also, Penny, as good as he was, was not even close to what LeBron is today. Pippen got torched by Grant Hill and Kobe, no Way he can check Lebron and "run them out of the building". (I loved watching those Detroit Pistons with Grant Hill against the bulls, even though bulls would always mainly beat them, Grant Hill just destroyed Scottie every time, I loved watching it, and clowning with my brother, who is a huge Bulls fan, how Hill just lights up Pippen). LeBron simply is too physically imposing for both Pippen and Jordan, as great defenders as those guys were.

Those bulls were great, but I think you're underestimating how good these guys are, also. Even if the Bulls would win, there would definitely be no "running out of the building". LeBron and Wade together are about as good of a wing combination as there ever was, outside of MJ and Scottie, and the jury is still out. Let's see how they play together over the next few years.

#41 Arnel, Aug 21, 2010

t_mac1 Contributing Member

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Dave_78 said:

Isn't that the most important thing considering the other guy's team was the favorite in many experts' minds to win it all yet he failed two years in a row?

One guy has a history of overachieving. The other guy has a history of underachieving. There's a reason the underachiever jumped ship to join the overachiever.
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that is the reason people use. and like i said, people use that b/c lebron hasn't played a game as a heat. when he does play, his play will speak for itself.

but facts are facts. wade admitted lebron is the most dominant player in the L. and he IS the better player. it's hard for a better player to "defer" to a lesser player, regardless of their past achievements.

i mean, if tracy mcgrady suddenly regains his superstar form, do you think he would defer to joe johnson who has more playoff success than he does? (hypothetical of course b/c tmac won't ever be like that again).

#42 t_mac1, Aug 21, 2010
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Dave_78 said:

Lebron left a 60+ win (two years in a row) team that was a favorite to win it all where he was THE MAN. Of course he is the sidekick in Miami. That is how he wants it.
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ha ha ha I think you're wrong. Talent determines who the sidekick is. A 2 time consecutive MVP and a conscious choice by most as the clear best player in the league comes to the team you're playing on. And it's "OF COURSE" that he's the sidekick? ahhahaha that's crazy talk. As others have said, they are both in the top 5 players in the league, and we shall see how things play out, but too many people simply have something against James and are using this as an excuse to bash him. LOL. It's hilarious. The guy made a choice to go to Miami. Yea, he did it in a douchebag sort of way with the whole "decision" but everything else he did was perfectly ok. He played out his contract and went to play in Miami, where he will be the BEST player on that team .

#43 Arnel, Aug 21, 2010
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When James Wins MVP again .. We'll See who's team it is ..
But Maybe Wade and James could create a new preception of two great players leading a team to multiaple championships .. And Bosh as the third sidekick ..

#44 Landry92, Aug 21, 2010
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jevjnd said:

Since we're comparing this team to that 72 win Bulls team, I'm going to come out and say that it's simply not going to happen. I have not ever seen another player like Rodman since. The guy was D'ing up Shaq when he was young, was quick, and had over 30 rebounds in a game on more than one occasion. The Rupaul of big men is a very good player, but he couldn't dream of bringing that kind of toughness. The pressure that Pippen and Jordan put on ball handlers also can't be duplicated by any player that I've seen in the NBA today; that's how they negated so many post players. If those loaded Celtics teams, Faker teams, and countless other mega-talented teams couldn't achieve it, why would this Head team do it? Sure the league is weaker, but they don't have the defense to do it. The Bulls were always a great defensive team, and they were always a team that was greater than the sum of their parts. Those teams would run this Heat team right out of the building; like they did to countless other talented teams before. Neither Wade or James are Pippen on defense, Mike Miller sucks on defense, and Rupaul is soft, he's not on Rodman's level by any stretch in the areas where it counts. That being said, I do expect this Heat team to win it all this year.
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This. Great post. The comparisons are ridiculous. Only Wade has shown any heart among these three, while those Bulls had big hearts and guts on top of their skills. The Van Gundys are excellent coaches but, as other posters here have mentioned, they might just be playing mind games for various reasons, among them, the Magic might lose out on the championship again because of the Heat.

I would leave out all comparisons with those Bulls until a player who is really like Jordan will play again. That may never come.

#45 albuster, Aug 21, 2010
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albuster said:

This. Great post. The comparisons are ridiculous. Only Wade has shown any heart among these three, while those Bulls had big hearts and guts on top of their skills. The Van Gundys are excellent coaches but, as other posters here have mentioned, they might just be playing mind games for various reasons, among them, the Magic might lose out on the championship again because of the Heat.

I would leave out all comparisons with those Bulls until a player who is really like Jordan will play again. That may never come.
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LOL... well let's wait and see what happens this season. IF the Heat do break the record, well obviously that would prove that this is a great team, WITH or WITHOUT Jordan. Why would we wait or want someone who is "really like Jordan" lol? Kobe Bryan is the player who most resembles Jordan. It's obvious that he has been trying to copy him for ages now. He tries to talk like Jordan and carry him self like Jordan, and use the same moves, so he is probably the closest to being "really like Jordan." Yet, LeBron James is a better player than Kobe Bryant. So, I dont' see why someone has to be "really like Jordan". Michael was great and GOAT in my mind. But IF the Heat do go on to come close to that record or break it, than obviously the teams them selves ARE comparable. We shall see..

#46 Arnel, Aug 21, 2010
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Penny lit up Pippen as well, but they still got ran out of the building, so what's your point? Shaq was also a far more dominant player than Lebron is, in every sense of the word. Pippen once checked Alonso Mourning. I didn't say that he would stop James. The truth is that you're right, Wade and James are both better offensive players than Rodman or Pippen, but it doesn't matter. Shaq was also a better offensive player than Rodman. Just like you hate it when people say Jordan wasn't there at all, which I didn't, I also hate it when people say that baseball Jordan was the same player as the greatest player of all time. He wasn't the same player his first year back. I mean really, you might as well say that he was the same player as he was when he was with the Wizards. Even if James scores on them, you can put him on Wade, and he would have some success against him. Don't even get me started on what Rodman would do to Bosh on that end of the floor....

Arnel said:

Like I said, I know he was past his prime, but he was clearly overmatched by Kobe than, and this was one year after their last championship. I just don't see that bulls team "running this heat team out of the building". Yeah, a very young Shaq and Penny BEAT these bulls, and lost to them next year. Yes Jordan was only a few months into his return, but he WAS BACK. Too many people act as if Jordan was not there for that series at all. Yes, he was not in 100% basketball shape, but he was there, and he lost the series to Magic. Also, Penny, as good as he was, was not even close to what LeBron is today. Pippen got torched by Grant Hill and Kobe, no Way he can check Lebron and "run them out of the building". (I loved watching those Detroit Pistons with Grant Hill against the bulls, even though bulls would always mainly beat them, Grant Hill just destroyed Scottie every time, I loved watching it, and clowning with my brother, who is a huge Bulls fan, how Hill just lights up Pippen). LeBron simply is too physically imposing for both Pippen and Jordan, as great defenders as those guys were.

Those bulls were great, but I think you're underestimating how good these guys are, also. Even if the Bulls would win, there would definitely be no "running out of the building". LeBron and Wade together are about as good of a wing combination as there ever was, outside of MJ and Scottie, and the jury is still out. Let's see how they play together over the next few years.
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#47 jevjnd, Aug 21, 2010

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Yes, let's wait and see. This isn't the first time that it's been said. If this team gets to 72, then it's to the tipjar for me. How about a friendly wager?

Arnel said:

LOL... well let's wait and see what happens this season. IF the Heat do break the record, well obviously that would prove that this is a great team, WITH or WITHOUT Jordan. Why would we wait or want someone who is "really like Jordan" lol? Kobe Bryan is the player who most resembles Jordan. It's obvious that he has been trying to copy him for ages now. He tries to talk like Jordan and carry him self like Jordan, and use the same moves, so he is probably the closest to being "really like Jordan." Yet, LeBron James is a better player than Kobe Bryant. So, I dont' see why someone has to be "really like Jordan". Michael was great and GOAT in my mind. But IF the Heat do go on to come close to that record or break it, than obviously the teams them selves ARE comparable. We shall see..
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#48 jevjnd, Aug 21, 2010
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jevjnd said:

Penny lit up Pippen as well, but they still got ran out of the building, so what's your point? Shaq was also a far more dominant player than Lebron is, in every sense of the word. Pippen once checked Alonso Mourning. I didn't say that he would stop James. The truth is that you're right, Wade and James are both better offensive players than Rodman or Pippen, but it doesn't matter. Shaq was also a better offensive player than Rodman. Just like you hate it when people say Jordan wasn't there at all, which I didn't, I also hate it when people say that baseball Jordan was the same player as the greatest player of all time. He wasn't the same player his first year back. I mean really, you might as well say that he was the same player as he was when he was with the Wizards. Even if James scores on them, you can put him on Wade, and he would have some success against him. Don't even get me started on what Rodman would do to Bosh on that end of the floor....
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The point is, LeBron is light years ahead of where Penny was lol. It's not even a discussion. And in ADDITION to Lebron, you have Wade, who is also better than Penny. Yes, Shaq was pretty damn dominant. However, it took Shaq a long time to learn how to actually win. (Kinda like it's taking Lebron). This was not the Shaq of 2000-2002, where he absolutely torched the league. He was dominant, but I believe that this current Heat team is more dominant. Also, Phil Jackson did say that Shaq was more dominant than Jordan..... And Jordan beat Shaq, so I'm not really sure that this Shaq/Lebron comparison is doing much for this argument. The team is more similar to bulls than to the magic. You have Wade and LeBron going against Pippen and Kobe. And you have Bosh going against Rodman. The STRENGTHS are in the same position on both teams.... So the magic argument is just not a good one really. Bulls got dominated at center and point, and Magic got dominated at 2, 3, and 4. This heat team has their big guns and 2, 3, and 4, and some decent role players as well. They would NOT get run out of the building lol. It just woulnd't happen. Once again, I'm not saying the Bulls wouldn't win (we shall see this year just HOW good this Heat team will be), but to say that they would get "run out of the building" is really pushing it lol. LeBron and Wade TOGETHER are better offensively than Jordan and Pippen TOGETHER. Of course, MJ and Pip were the better defenders, but we will see by how much this season. I think LeBron and Wade together are gonna lock some dudes down, just a hunch.

OH, and yes, let's not talk about the 95 Jordan anymore. I did acknowledge that he wasn't in 100% best basketball shape, but the dude was there ok. IF he had won that year, people would be saying, "Well, no one could beat Jordan and that's why the Rockets didn't get another ring in 95". However, Jordan LOST the series to Magic, and everyone says "Oh, well Jordan DIDN"T PLAY in 94 and 95, and that's why the Rockets won the championship. Those are the two championships that should both have asterisk on them, because had Jordan played either of those years (which he freaken did in 95) Rockets would NOT have won". AhhHHHHH LOL I'm sorry, but I came close to fist fights in high school over this crap. EVERYBODY used to say that Rockets chips have asterisk with them. People didn't realize how well Rockets matched up with the bulls, that they were the only team to have a winning record against them, that had they even faced the bulls, they still might have won. Jordan him self acknowledged this. Anyways, touchy subject for me lol. Anytime people start talking about asterisks on those rockets chips, I start shaking and feel like pulling out an AK-47 or something, but wisely instead use my words (while trying not to yell and to hold back my obvious anger lol).

#49 Arnel, Aug 22, 2010
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jevjnd said:

Yes, let's wait and see. This isn't the first time that it's been said. If this team gets to 72, then it's to the tipjar for me. How about a friendly wager?
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OK, how about this:

1) If Heat Win 70, or 71 games, I will put $50 in the tipjar.

2) If Heat Win less than 70 games, I will put $100 in the tipjar.

#50 Arnel, Aug 22, 2010
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LeBron is a better 3pt shooter, but worse in mid-range.
I didn't check the chart, but even if what you said was true, it's most due to Cavs having good shooters to spread the floor.

Shaud said:

Lol @ people saying that Wade jumpshot is better than LeBron's.

How about you go check out last year's hot shot chart to see the cold and hot spots which also shows the percentages from each spot. LeBron had the higher percentage in every spot except for one spot on the floor and guess what it was around the rim not jumpshots.

For jumpshots LeBron shot a better percentage than Wade in every single spot.
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#51 goodbug, Aug 22, 2010
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Simple, Wade is a proven winner, LeBron is not. Wade played better in playoff, LeBron was the opposite.

t_mac1 said:

lebron is a better 3pt shooter. he's a more efficient scorer. he scores more, rebounds more, passes better, defends better...

name one thing wade does better than james. the only thing people have come up with is: IT'S HIS TEAM. HE WON A RING SO IT'S HIS TEAM. lol.
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#52 goodbug, Aug 22, 2010
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You keep on saying this, and I never saw a reference.
http://dimemag.com/2009/06/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-is-still-the-best-player-in-the-game/

Apparently Wade believed Kobe's the best player in the league last June, and I can't see why he would change his mind after another Lakers championship run.

t_mac1 said:

that is the reason people use. and like i said, people use that b/c lebron hasn't played a game as a heat. when he does play, his play will speak for itself.

but facts are facts. wade admitted lebron is the most dominant player in the L. and he IS the better player. it's hard for a better player to "defer" to a lesser player, regardless of their past achievements.

i mean, if tracy mcgrady suddenly regains his superstar form, do you think he would defer to joe johnson who has more playoff success than he does? (hypothetical of course b/c tmac won't ever be like that again).
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#53 goodbug, Aug 22, 2010

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goodbug said:

You keep on saying this, and I never saw a reference.
http://dimemag.com/2009/06/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-is-still-the-best-player-in-the-game/

Apparently Wade believed Kobe's the best player in the league last June, and I can't see why he would change his mind after another Lakers championship run.
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Because Kobe is not the best player anymore.

#54 Arnel, Aug 22, 2010
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TheMacster said:

Nor the defense & in this day&age the interior game.
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Did you copy and paste this from lakersground too?

#55 Al Capone, Aug 22, 2010
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goodbug said:

Simple, Wade is a proven winner, LeBron is not. Wade played better in playoff, LeBron was the opposite.
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You trollin'.

#56 Al Capone, Aug 22, 2010
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kanariya said:

They don't have a Phil Jackson. No 72+ wins.
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They have Pat Riley in the fold

#57 spysta, Aug 22, 2010
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If they get 72 this year, I'll put $50 in; deal.

Arnel said:

OK, how about this:

1) If Heat Win 70, or 71 games, I will put $50 in the tipjar.

2) If Heat Win less than 70 games, I will put $100 in the tipjar.
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#58 jevjnd, Aug 22, 2010

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jevjnd said:

If they get 72 this year, I'll put $50 in; deal.
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You've got your self a deal . All for a good cause baby .

#59 Arnel, Aug 22, 2010
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Arnel said:

ha ha ha I think you're wrong. Talent determines who the sidekick is. A 2 time consecutive MVP and a conscious choice by most as the clear best player in the league comes to the team you're playing on. And it's "OF COURSE" that he's the sidekick? ahhahaha that's crazy talk. As others have said, they are both in the top 5 players in the league, and we shall see how things play out, but too many people simply have something against James and are using this as an excuse to bash him. LOL. It's hilarious. The guy made a choice to go to Miami. Yea, he did it in a douchebag sort of way with the whole "decision" but everything else he did was perfectly ok. He played out his contract and went to play in Miami, where he will be the BEST player on that team .
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My point is that he left the best regular season team in the league (and one of the favorites to win the Championship) where he was THE MAN. Why would you leave the best team in the league (in the regular season) where you are the man unless you don't want the pressure of being THE MAN anymore?

#60 Dave_78, Aug 22, 2010

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