HP, good point. Thing is, I just don't know if Ujiri would take this gamble. He is ALREADY gambling with Kawhi (and FA status). But it was a calculated gamble because if he walks, it is a tear down. Butler would add to the gamble....BUT.....they would LOSE a key youth piece. Unlike in the Kawhi trade. So it is a MUCH deeper gamble. So, I think the Raptors would probably pass on that move.
Tucker is another Luc, career journeymen that fans get attached to. Letting him stop you from getting Jimmy Buckets would be insane. Of course you do it. I'd throw in more even to sweeten the deal. Get your BIG3/4(Potentially Big5 if Melo comes back big) and let the vet buy outs and vet minimum ring chasers fill out the roster ala Heatles run.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the less optimistic I am. Raptors and Lakers can make great offers. Lakers trade will cost Thibs his job though, as they won't survive October to December 15th with a dysfunctional team. Raptors trade works great for Raptors, as Kawhi/Butler/Lowry are likely to mesh personality wise, and either stay for the long haul or leave and allow Raptors to rebuild immediately. Butler has to insist and we have to make a hell of an offer to beat even a depleted Ibaka and a great young prospect in OG Anunoby. To convince Butler to insist, you probably have to convince him that we will be undisputedly up there with the Warriors as unbeatable. For that to happen, you have to keep Tucker. You got to put Gordon, Chriss, Nene, Hartenstein and a first on the table and have Paul/Harden texting Butler 24 hours a day. The only way we get him is if Butler forces it, so why give up Tucker and Gordon and a first? Why would Butler do that? Well, because him on the Raptors doesn't guarantee they beat Boston, and him on the Lakers doesn't guarantee they beat Houston or GS. So hopefully it's us since the only team we would not be guaranteed to beat is the Warriors, and if we keep Tucker we might well be the favorites.
We can make this work. @Codman said that there might be a need for a 3rd team to be involved. This package will make Thibs, the coach, very happy and Thibs, the GM, feel like a genius. Spoiler
keyword being borderline. he isn't an all star. just a solid player which isn't bad but if you're looking to raise a ceiling which is obviously necessary against GS, JB does that more than him
Well it depends on how secure the GM is about his job prospects. The reality is that Lowery/Butler/Leonard/Ibaka/Valan is possibly good enough to beat down the Celtics and Sixers and come out of the East. Butler/Leonard at the swing spots would be simply NASTY defensively, that would allow them to shut down or limit most of the elite teams in the NBA. Those two guys can cover 4 spots on the floor. They can even go small and have Ibaka or Siakam play the 5. Also, I would argue that adding Butler likely increases the chance that Leonard re-signs this summer because the Raptors will be that much better.
Well said was going to be my exact statement. I don't see OG going anywhere. Even with the ability to pair Kawhi with butler.
Thibs: Sorry Daryl, according to logic, I need to acquire young players. Morey: What if we can coax the Knicks into sending Joakim Noah back to you and- Thibs: DONE DONE DONE DONE!!!!!!!
I think the one ability we have that other teams don't is Moreys willingness to gamble and go all in. I think butler as a rental diminishes his value enough to where most teams offer up a little youth and a pick. Or a solid vet or 2 and a pick. But in Houston's case, I think morey is absolutely willing to give up 2 future 1st rd picks. I truly do and that's our biggest sale. You top 3 protect them or even unprotect them both and THAT becomes extremely valuable and hard to ignore and pass up. Sure, next years will be late 20s, but what can you guarantee in 3 years from now? Harden and butler 32 and Paul 37? That is a sexy lottery ticket type asset to hold on to. Morey has always been zigging when others zag. 1st rd picks right now are extremely valuable. They aren't being moved. Just look at all the recent trades. Morey has always favored flexibility more than anything but why now when your locked for the next few years? I don't think he does as much anymore. Our trump card is multiple 1sts, and that's just not something I see any other team offering. Not Toronto, not Lakers, not Clippers, not Knicks, not anyone except us.
This and Morey is the one GM that is confident, that if he gets Butler...... he can beat GS. There isn't another team out there that has that type of confidence. Also, the Lakers have to decide how much they want to trade AFTER passing on deals for Leonard and others with the idea that they will sign them next summer. Would the Lakers suddenly change course? I don't really know.
You're saying Ujiri is not willing to prove to Kawhi that he's all-in. If that was Lebron, you'd probably say he *has* to cash in on OG now for Butler to have any chance to retain Lebron. Two reasons Ujiri makes the trade: Kawhi, Lowry and Butler would be my pick for the Finals. Trading OG for Butler further proves the "all-in" approach that Ujiri has been promising Kawhi. There is no time to be second-guessing going all-in for Kawhi, by being scared of Butler not resigning, as you've already traded your All-Star fan favorite for a rental who you need to win over. Ujiri is already committed, go for the Finals now! *this year*
Losing Tucker would be a huge loss to this team and its identity. He is an absolute hustler and does not quit at all. He was a huge key against the matchup vs golden state. Now would it be something that would stop a potential trade? I do not think so but what does worry me on the horizon is more the rumors of Butler and Kyrie wanting to play in NY though maybe Jimmy B would be more than happy to stay in his "hometown" Now if it does happen then Paul/Harden/Butler/Melo/Capela would be a crazy stating lineup but there would be little depth behind it Ennis, Knight, Chriss, Nene, Green, MCW, Zhou That isn't the worst depth but it would be very spotty especially against certain teams. Granted Morey still has the MLE to work with to get someone possibly off of a buyout, but it would require a huge leap of faith in the development of Chriss in the front court (which I think he may get better due to Houston's culture but not right away) and then hoping Knight can return to the guy he was before the injury. MCW has had his moment but again not reliable. There would be no real "proven" playoff guys which we are going to need. There are no "role" players in the starting 5 which makes it difficult. If Morey can pull this trade off later (when Knight/Chriss can be dealt) and somehow keep Tucker and request Melo to come off the bench (I know i know) but that balance would be far far far better imo even if it requires to give up multiple FRPs Paul/Harden/Butler/Tucker/Capela Ennis, Green, Melo, Nene, MCW
I think the Rox have a better chance if this thing drags out until after Halloween. Using the Kawhi trade as a blueprint, the Spurs got: 1. A fringe All-star (wouldn't have been an All-star in the West) 2. A former lottery pick still on Rookie deal (2016 pick 9 Toronto's worst decent prospect) 3. 1rst (protected) After Halloween, Rox could offer: 1. A borderline All-star level player (6th MoY) - Gordon 2. A former lottery pick still on Rookie deal (2016 pick 8 Phoenix's worst decent prospect) - Chriss 3 1rst (Top 3 protected) The difference between Derozan and Gordon is probably cancelled out by the difference between Kawhi and Butler (as well as Kawhi being a full season with training camp vs. part of a season with Butler). If the deal had to happen before the season starts, maybe Nene could be included instead of Chriss with either more draft pick compensation, or maybe a separate Knight for Dieng salary dump. In the event we give up Gordon and Knight, I would hope we can bring back Tyus Jones. If you have to do Gordon and Tucker for Butler, I think you do it, because ultimately consolidation of high level talent is the only way to compete with GS. A deep team is great for the regular season, but in the playoffs and in crunch time, the advantage goes to the team that can put the best 5 man squad on the court. As to some of the other teams that could outbid that... Boston: If they weren't willing to trade for Kawhi, why would they trade for Butler. They already have Hayward, Tatum, and Brown for which to find minutes. Do they need another swing man? Why get older when they are already in the driver's seat? Philly: If Butler is unhappy with the young guys in Minny, can you be sure he'd be ok with all the youth in Philly? Toronto: Already gambling Kawhi. If he leaves, they lost Derozan and their worst prospect, but clear the books a bit and have a lot of prospects to rebuild around. Trading those prospects for another potential free agent could set the franchise back to Orlando level if both free agents leave. Seems like too much of a risk. LA: Ideally for them, they trade out as much or more money than Butler makes to bring him in. The Deng buyout gave them almost the exact amount they need for full 10yr max next summer. Trading 15mil of players for 20 mil of Butler effectively takes them out of the max free agent market (and that's not considering Butler's cap hold). For a team that thinks they will have their pick of top talent, why trade youth and your max slot for Butler, when you can wait it out and have your young guys and a Max player. I think the wild cards in this are Portland/Denver/Milwaukee/Washington. Those teams all have some interesting pieces and could convince themselves that they are a Butler away from being in the conversation. Ultimately, this will probably be like every other big name player that is traded on an expiring deal. The deal that gets done will leave many fan bases upset that their team didn't beat the offer, but for the most part, teams aren't willing to give up much when the guy can walk at the end of the year. Even the PG13 and Kawhi deals have been framed as salary dumps if the star leaves via Free Agency.
Its not just his confidence in beating the warriors but his desire and passion to. No matter how you look at cousins going to gsw, you have to realize morey sees that and recognizes he has to make another push to close the talent gap. We played to our absolute best potential against them last year, injury withstanding. Perfect gameplan, all out heart, grit grind and determination and at the end of the day we got out talented. Adding butler closes that gap. Plain and simple. What's a couple 1st rd picks going to get you in this small window? More role players. And as we seen last year great role players playing as hard and determined as they could was not good enough. We needed cp3, we needed talent.
