I would like to list three points for those that think Bill Russell benefited by being surrounded by superior talent: 1) In the Celtics hayday, seldom did they have any statiscal leaders other than Russell. They won without a player in the top 5 (usually top 10) in scoring. 2) All championship teams are comprised of at least 2 great players - Shaq has Kobe, Jordan had Pippen, Isiah had Dumars, Kareem had Magic, Bird had McHale, Doc had Moses...the list goes on. The point is...ALL centers mentioned here had talent on their teams. 3) Does this really sound like overwhelming talent to you...Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, Gene Conley, Frank Ramsey, Tommy Heinsohn, Bailey Howell, John Havlicek? Russell's Celtics played against and defeated the likes of Bob Pettit, Cliff Hagen, Clyde Lovellette, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt, Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham and Rick Barry...to name a few. Apart from Russell's defense, the Celtics of old were successful because of team play. For example, the '61 champs had 6 players who averaged 15+ppg (not one in the top 5). You will be hard pressed to convince me the old Celts won with superior talent.
Games: 142. Wilt's averages against Russell: 28.7 points, 28.7 rebounds. Highs: 62 points, 55 rebounds (which is also the single game record) Russell's averages against Wilt: 14.5 points, 23.7 rebounds. His high for points was 37... I'm not sure what his high in rebounds was. Purely from the numbers, Russell did very little to contain Chamberlain. In his games against Russell, Wilt averaged about 2 fewer points, and about 5 more rebounds than his career numbers. That doesn't mean Russell wasn't a great defender... it means that Wilt turned up his game. Your analysis is fairly good, but as I have posted time and time again... Wilt was the most athletic big man ever, PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. Some of the things he did were so bizzarely spectacular that many people don't believe me when I tell the simple truth: -Wilt, early in his career, had a vertical leap of 55 inches. He would jump up and grab things off the top of the backboard, as well as (in high school) make free throws by taking ONE STEP up to the line, then jumping up and dunking it. -Wilt could run the 100-yard dash in under 10 seconds. He once out-ran James Brown, as well as teammate Al Attles. -Wilt, when he was making the movie Conan the Destroyer in 1985, at 45 years of age, was benching 450 ponds and doing sit-ups with 250 on his chest. He once grabbed a street light with both hands, then extended his arms, legs, and entire body totally horizontally, holding it for several minutes. Wilt once picked up Bob Lanier (then 280-300 pounds) with ONE arm, while Lanier was standing BEHIND Wilt. Besides Shaq possibly challenging Wilt in pure strength, no other big man even comes near Wilt in ANY of these categories. Also, Macbeth's point that Dream lacked that one star beside him to truly dominate is well-taken, but how is having no other stars with you against a team that has 2-4 stars (Lakers/Celtics etc.) any different from Wilt with his 1-3 other stars vs. Russell with his 7 other HOFers? I still view Wilt as the most dominant/talented center, no wait, PLAYER ever. As for Abdul-Jabbar, I have this to say: as good as he was, Wilt was the better when they played head-to-head. I really don't know what their stats against each other are like, but you could see in the 3 years they played head to head that Wilt was controlling what Jabbar was doing. This, when Wilt was 33-35 and Jabbar was 19-21. You'll notice, however, that in the same situation, a 19-21 Hakeem was outplaying a 35 Jabbar. That, and the fact that Jabbar had better teammates than Wilt relative to the rest of league, and probably overall, spells the difference for me. 1. Wilt 2. Kareem Russell 3. Hakeem 4. All others I won't go into the whole "today's players are better/more talented thing" though in some ways I disagree. That's a whole other can of worms, and I don't think anyone is interested anyway.
You want to know if that sounds like overwhelming talent to you? Let me think for about half a second…uh…HELL YES!!! Bob Cousy, Hall of Famer: * NBA MVP (1957) * All-NBA First Team (1952-61) * All-NBA Second Team (1962-63) * NBA All-Star Game MVP (1954, 1957) * Thirteen-time NBA All-Star (1951-63) * NBA championships with the Boston Celtics (1957, 1959-63) * Led the NBA in assists from 1953-60, including a career high 9.5 per game in 1960 * Holds NBA record for most assists in one half (19, Feb. 27, 1959 vs. Minneapolis) * NBA 25th Anniversary All-Time Team (1970) * NBA 35th Anniversary All-Time Team (1980) * NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996) Bill Sharman, Hall of Famer: * All-NBA First Team (1956-59) * All-NBA Second Team (1952, 1955, 1960) * Eight-time NBA All-Star (1953-60) * All-Star Game MVP, following 15 points scored (1955) * Holds All-Star game record for most field goal attempts in one quarter (12) in 1960 * Scored 12,665 (17.8 ppg) in 711 professional games * Averaged 18.5 ppg in 78 playoff games * NBA championships with Boston Celtics (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961) * Five Eastern Division Championship teams (1957-61) * NBA 25th Anniversary All-Time Team (1970) NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996) Sam Jones, Hall of Famer: * All-NBA Second Team (1965-67) * Five-time NBA All-Star (1962, 1964-66, 1968) * Led Boston in scoring in 1963 (19.7 ppg), 1965 (25.9) and 1966 (23.5) * Produced four consecutive seasons averaging 20 points or better (1965-68) * Member of 10 championship teams (1959-66 and 1968-69) * Owns Boston's fourth best single-game scoring output (51 points vs. Detroit on Oct. 29, 1965) * Tallied 15,411 points (17.7 ppg) in his 12-year career * Scored 2,909 points in 154 playoff games (18.9 ppg), 15th best in history * NBA 25th Anniversary Team (1970) NBA 50th Anniversary Team (1996) K.C. Jones, Hall of Famer: * Selected in the second round of the 1956 NBA Draft, but did not join Boston until 1958 after serving two years in the military * Played nine seasons with the Boston Celtics (1959-67) * Eight NBA championships with Boston Celtics (1959-66) * Led the Celtics in assists in 1964-66 * Number 25 jersey was retired by the Celtics Frank Ramsey, Hall of Famer: * NBA championships with Boston Celtics (1957, 1959-64) * Eight Eastern Division championships (1957-64) * Scored 8,378 points (13.4 ppg) in 623 professional games, including a career-high 16.5 ppg in 1957-58 * Popularized the sixth man role * During the playoffs from 1958-61, averaged 18.4 ppg, 23.2 ppg, 18.1 ppg, 17.1 ppg * Boston retired his number 23 jersey Tom Heinsohn, Hall of Famer: * NBA Rookie of the Year (1957) * All-NBA Second Team (1961-64) * Six-time NBA All Star (1957, 1961-65) * Eight NBA championships with Boston Celtics (1957, 1959-65) * Scored 37 points in the seventh game of the 1957 NBA championships against St. Louis to help lead Boston to its first NBA title * Scored 43 points against Los Angeles and New York * Scored his 10,000th NBA point on the same day Bob Cousy retired Averaged 18.6 ppg in 654 regular season games and 19.8 in 104 playoff games Bailey Howell, Hall of Famer: * All-NBA Second Team (1963) * Six-time All Star (1961-64, 1966-67) * NBA championships with Boston Celtics (1968, 1969) * Upon retirement (1971) ranked among NBA's top 10 leaders in nine statistical categories, including points (17,770, 18.7 ppg), rebounds 9,383 (9.9 rpg) and games played (950) * Led the Pistons in scoring four seasons (1961-64) * Led the Pistons in rebounding three seasons (1961-63) * In 1969 season, shot a Celtic-best 48 percent from the floor * Scored a career-high 43 points against the Lakers (Nov. 25, 1960); added career-high 32 rebounds * Had 42 points vs. Philadelphia (Feb. 7, 1964) and 40 vs. 76ers (Nov. 30, 1965) John Havlicek, Hall of Famer, * Drafted by both the Boston Celtics and the NFL's Cleveland Browns (he was eventually cut by the Browns in training camp) * When he arrived in Boston, the Celtics had just captured their fourth consecutive championship; his versatility, offensive firepower and crafty play became paramount in Boston winning another four straight NBA titles (1963-66) * Won a total of eight NBA championships with the Celtics (1963-66, 1968-69, 1974, 1976) * Became first player to score 1,000 points in 16 consecutive seasons * His best single season was 1970-71 (28.9 ppg) * Thirteen-time NBA All-Star (1966-78) * When he retired, his number 17 Celtics jersey was immediately retired (1978) * NBA Finals MVP (1974) * Named to 11 All-NBA First (1971-74) and Second (1964, 1966, 1968-70, 1975-76) Teams * Five-time All-Defensive First Team (1972-76) and three-time All-Defensive Second Team (1969-71) * Celtics all-time leader with 26,395 points (20.8 ppg, sixth all-time) and played in 1,270 games (fourth all-time) * Averaged 22.0 ppg in 172 playoff games * Regarded as the best sixth man in NBA history * During his 16 years with the Celtics, coach Red Auerbach described him as the "guts of the team" * Will forever be remembered for stealing an inbound pass in the 1965 Eastern Conference Finals against the * Philadelphia 76ers that preserved Boston's 110-109 victory-Johnny Most's legendary call, "Havlicek stole the ball," remains a classic description of a memorable moment in NBA history * Shares NBA Finals single-game record for most points in an overtime period (9-May 10, 1974 vs. Milwaukee) * Shares single-game playoff record for most field goals made (24-April 1, 1973 vs. Atlanta) * NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980) * NBA 50th Anniversary Team (1996) All of those guys are Hall of Famers. That is some of the best talent to ever be assembled on one team if not the best talent ever for a stretch that less than two decades. Damn straight that is overwhelming talent! That’s eight Hall of Famers that played with Russell and made major contributions to his championship teams. There is no doubt that the Celtics of old won because of superior talent.
Ummmm...well...when you put it like that..... LOL! No, seriously, crash, you took the words out of my mouth.
Don't forget their legendary coach on that Celtics team other than 8 HOFer teammates. Red Auberbach. Bill Russel is overrated.
Excuuuuuse me? I'm not conviced. If I were new to this planet, you would have convinced me that the Celtics were the only team with HOF'ers and all the other teams were vastly inferior. Sorry not true. Celtics beat the Hawks to win in '57, '59, '60 & 61 . Hawks included HOF'ers: Robert "Bob" Pettit * NBA Rookie of the Year (1955) * All-NBA First Team (1955-64) * All-NBA Second Team (1965) * NBA MVP (1956, 1959) * Eleven-time NBA All-Star (1955-65) * NBA All-Star Game MVP in 1956 after scoring 20 points with 24 rebounds; 1958 after scoring 28 points with 26 rebounds; 1962 after scoring 25 points with 27 rebounds Clyde Lovellette * Averaged 17.0 ppg and 9.3 rpg in 11 professional seasons * All-NBA Second Team (1955, 1956) * Three-time NBA All-Star (1956, 1960, 1962) * Scored 21 points in 1962 All-Star Game * NBA championship with Minneapolis (1954) * Had six seasons averaging 20 or more points, including 23.4 ppg in 1957-58 Clifford Hagan * All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1959) * NBA All Star (1958-62) * All-Pro (1957-62) * NBA championship (1958) * Hawks were five-time NBA Western Division champions (1957-61) * Scored 12,433 points in 672 games with the Hawks * Hit over .790 from the free throw line seven years in a row Celtics beat the Lakers to win in '58. Lakers included HOF'ers: Elgin Baylor Vern Mikkelsen Celtics beat the LA Lakers to win in '62, '63, '65, '66, '68, 69. Lakers included HOF'ers: Jerry West * Selected by Minneapolis Lakers in first round (second overall pick) of 1960 NBA draft * All-NBA First Team 10 times (1962-67, 1970-73) * All-NBA Second Team twice (1968-69) * NBA All-Defensive First Team four times (1970-73) * NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1969) * Fourteen-time NBA All-Star (1961-74) * NBA All-Star MVP (1972) * NBA Finals MVP (1969) * NBA Championship (1972) * Member of 1972 Lakers that compiled a 69-13 record and 33-game winning streak *Led NBA in scoring in 1969-70 with 31.2 average * Led the NBA in assists in 1971-72 with 747 total assists for a 9.7 average * Holds single-season record for most free throws made-840 (1966) * Holds single-series playoff record for highest points-per-game average-46.3 against Baltimore (1965) * Holds record for highest point average in playoffs for one season-40.6 in 11 games (1965) * Los Angeles Lakers' all-time leading scorer with 25,192 points for a 27.0 average in 932 games * Retired as the NBA's leading playoff scorer with 4,457 points and a 29.1 average in 153 games * Averaged 40.6 points per game during 1965 playoffs * Compiled 970 assists during his career * Scored 20-plus points in 25 consecutive appearances in the NBA Finals * Retired as third leading scorer in NBA history with 25,192 points * Retired with fourth highest scoring average (27.0 ppg) in NBA history Elgin Baylor * NBA Rookie of the Year (1959) * All-NBA First Team 10 times (1959-65, 67-69) * Eleven-time NBA All-Star (1959-65, 1967-70) * NBA All-Star Game Co-MVP (1959) *Holds NBA Finals single-game record for most points (61) on April 24, 1962 against the Boston Celtics * Scored 23,149 points in only 846 games (27.4 ppg, third best all-time) and averaged 30 points or more three times (1961-63) * Retired as NBA's third all-time leading scorer * Retired as fifth leading scorer in All-Star Game history (19.8 ppg) * Ranked sixth in NBA Finals all-time scoring (26.4 in 44 games) * Ranked seventh in NBA playoffs all-time scoring (27.0 in 134 games Celtics beat Wilts SF Warriors '64. In the mid and late 60's, the Celtics were coming from the Eastern Conference which included the Sixers of Wilt and HOF'er Hal Greer. The Celts won in 1969 against Wilt, West (the series MVP), and Baylor. Russell's help? 35 year old Sam Jones, an aging Bailey Howell who came over from the Pistons in '67, and youngsters Havlicek and Don Nelson as well as Larry Siegfried. Not exactly murderers row.
Jerry West was 31 Elgin Baylor was 35 Wilt Chamberlain was a couple of months away from 32 The Celtics by comparison was a veteran to full of Hall of Famers. Hondo had been in the league for 6 years so it is not like he was a kid. Champerlain had just joined the Lakers and Baylor was just as old as Sam Jones. So lets see the Lakers are taking three Hall of Famers that have only played together for one year with one (Elgin Baylor) in the twilight of his career. The Celtics are going to have 5 hall of famers that have all played and won multiple championships on the same team. Once again I say hell yes I would take the Celtics! In a period of 13 years the Celtics won 11 championships and had 9 hall of fame players that I can count. During almost every game they could march out 5 hall of famers with at least one more on the bench. You want to compare the 3 hall of famers of St. Louis or L.A. to the Celtics? On top of that I concede that Russell was the second best big man of his era. The gap between 1 and 2 was big IMO but so was the gap between 2 and 3. Bill Russell was a great Hall of Fame center that played with the best collection of talent ever assembled. No team outside of the Celtics has ever walked that many Hall of Famers out on the court at one time and no one ever will again.
crash - I might concede this for the Celtics from the mid 50's to 1963. But to set the record straight, the '65 Celts had "only" 4 starters - Russell (31), Havlicek (25) and the Jones Boys (K.C. was 33 & Sam 32). Satch Sanders (a none HOF'er) had far more playoff minutes than Heinsohn (31). As you can see, they maybe HOF'ers but there not exactly "kids". Russells '68 team had Russell, Havlicek, and a 35 yo Sam Jones. While this team did have a 4th HOF'er, Bailey Howell was past 30 and on the decline. He did not make the All Star team during this championship season or any time after. Larry Siegfried, Don Nelson, Satch Sanders and Wayne Embry were also on the '67-'68 roster. Havlicek and Russell played the bulk of the playoff minutes in '69. Emmette Bryant had more minutes than either Jones or Howell. Siegfried, Nelson, Sanders got the remaining minutes. As you can see, your "5 or 6 HOF'ers" statement is absolutely inaccurate for Russells later years. Unless you want to convince me how great Bailey Howell was as a Celtics?
What is this!? The 65 Celtics only had 4 starting HOF's....ONLY 4! The fith one came off of the bench? How did they manage to win the championship that year? With only 4 HOF's it must have been pure luck! and how a bunch old guys who were over 30 could beat a bunch of young guys over 30 in 1969 is beyond me.
