Rockets won't win a championship with Steve as a PG.

I bet Dallas would not even consider a straight up trade of Nash for Frances. Nash does not even come close to Frances in athleticism. BUT without Nash the Mavs would not be the contender they are. Why?

 

Damn dude, no wonder Milwaukee can't win....

 

Tito Maddox. He is a big guard. If he can pull a Mobley as a late 2nd pick we will move closer to moving Francis to the 2. A big IF though. Only time will tell.

 

I can't stop laughing... that's some funny $hit!

 

You know something though?

Seriously, who was the last ugly best player in the NBA candidate?


You don't come across many, if ANY.


Maybe you DO have to look good to be the best?

I say this becaue I realized that when I'm watchin some games with my friend, she always thinks the best players are good looking, and she doesn't know who they are or how much they make.

 

I am going to keep it short and brief. The way Steve Francis is <B>currently playing</B> is <B>not up to the standard of how an elite point</B> guard should play. Infact I have stated in earlier post called <I><B>"chron: Yao can't do his thing if he doesn't get the ball"</I></B> that <B> Francis</B> is playing like an <B>average point guard</B> at best.

<B>If Francis doesn't improve his point guard skills I would highly suggest a trade.</B> It's <B>not even a debatable</B> decision. The only thing debatable is <B>who we would trade him for</B>.

I totally agree with previous postings that stated that the Rocket's don't play as a team. It is <B>Francis' job</B> as a <B>point guard</B> to <B>involve</B> those player.

Don't buy the <B>excuse</B> that Francis cann't get the ball into <B>Yao's hands</B>. The point guards primary job is to pass the ball. If Francis is <B>uncapable of handling this job</B> then a <B>trade</B> needs to be made. How hard is it to pass to a 7 ft 5 center?

If Francis is going to go on <B>national TV</B> and state that the <B>offense is going to go through Yao Ming</B> then why doesn't he do it? Francis must think we are <B>bunch of idiots</B> or he really is <B>incapable of passing</B> to the big man.

 

looks like someone got a little to excited when they figured out how to use BOLD

 

haha...
that's so funny.

 

Riiiiight... so you are going to trade your most consistent player and scorer for who?

The way Francis has been playing has been anything but average. His play has not only been at par or above with elite point gaurds, but also with elite players period. Take a look...

Point/game - 24.3 (6th in the league)
Reb/game - 6.8 (only gaurds that avg more than him are Kobe, Paul Pierce, and Mike Finley. That appears to be elite company IMHO)
Asst/game - 6.0 (15th in the league. Only one of the 14 players ahead of him in this stat score as much as Steve, and that player is Kobe)
Total Effeciency - Tied for eighth (with Tim Duncan, is he just an average player). Players above him: Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady , Kobe Bryant , Dirk Nowitzki , Jason Kidd, Elton Brand, and Gary Payton. That looks like an elite group to me, and oh my goodness, there's even a couple of elite point gaurds in that list.

To state that Francis is an average anything, point gaurd or otherwise is simply ridiculous. To suggest trading him is asinine (especially since you conveniently left out who we would be trading him for). The fact that you have no idea what you are talking about is the only thing that is not even debatable.

 

This is inresponse to <B>O-dawg</B>

First, O-dawg I <B>didn't say</B> Steve Francis <B>wasn't a good player</B>. By the way, I'm impressed with your statistical research.

If you read carefully, I said that I am not going to develop my argument in that post. In fact I said I developed my argument in a previous post which you should go to and read.

In that post I essentially say that Steve Francis is one of the most talented players, which you have clearly shown through your statistical research, in the league. However, I believe he is an average point guard. And I list reasons why I think he is average at point.

So please read my article and then if you feel the same thats okay also. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Clearly you are basing your arguement around statistics. Which I think is a great arguement. However, I might add that some statistics don't show up. For example, Yao Ming might only block 2 or 3 shots a game but he probably alters at least 15 shots a night. Same could be said for a point guard such as Jason Kidd. Kidd makes players around him better I believe. His pass first mentality rubs off onto other players and he creates so many easy opportunites for his teammates to make shots. These are statistics that dont' show. Instead, what shows is if the teammate makes or does not make the shot.

My point is this...I believe Steve Francis gets his own in a game but <B>does nothing to make his teammates better</B> or give them <B>easy opportunities</B> to make easy baskets. It is up to the point guard to get everyone involved and help run the offense smoothy. I guess I would love to know <B>your definition of a point guard</B> is. I look at John Stockton (in his prime), Jason Kidd, Mike Bibby, and Steve Nash as examples of elite point guards. I would trade Steve Francis for any of those guys. Francis might get on the highlight reels but he won’t lead you to a championship the way he is playing. Without Ming the Rockets would be a below .4 team the way their offense is run.

Enuff Said

 

Steve is AOK. If we had five Steve Francis' we would win it all.

 

Five Franchises -- now that would be an exciting team! If one Steve is great, five would be at least five times better! Imagine that group's potential for playing smart, winning, team basketball: taking turns running ISO's, performing masturbatory crossover rituals, jacking up dumbass shots!

 

Stevie should stay at PG he is perfect there just what we need to win a championship all we need is someone different then mobley and we could use some ppl downlow to help YAO MING

 

X_trep...

First let me say that i am not a big fan of stats either. I used those stats, because it was the easiest way for me to illustrate that Steve is not just an elite point gaurd, but more importantly he is an elite player period.

I don't define players totally by their position, because as I've stated in other threads, the NBA is evolving and you can no longer pigeon hole players as this or that exclusively. See this thread for more details:SAME OLD QUESTION THREAD
I define players more by , their all around skills, their importance to their team, and how they fit the coaches offensive scheme.

John Stockton, Steve Nash, and Mike Bibby would not fit Rudys gaurd oriented offensive scheme, neither would Jason Kidd for that matter. I stated why in this thread:
Move Steve to the 2 arguement...

Would Rudy change his scheme to suite those players, not the first three, Jason Kidd, maybe. I read your post and still disagree, I ask that you read my posts in the threads above and tell me what you think. I too feel that stats don't tell the whole story. Such as the many times that Steve penetrates and kicks out to an open team mate that blows the shot or even moves it one more pass for a score, getting that player the assist and not Steve. I see Steve attempting to get players involved early (for the most part) and then pressing more as the game goes along.

In any regard, my point was that trading Steve for a pass 1st point gaurd would not fit the Rox offense and you would lose all of the other great things that Francis brings and other points don't. I too feel that Yao should touch the ball more, but it is not Steve's fault that he doesn't get more touches. The offense needs to be tweeked to utilize more of Yao's abilities, just as it was to get more shots for the gaurds. Steve and Yao can co-exist people, just give Rudy a chance to get it all together.

 

LOL


You know whats funny.... This post is better than the one that started this thread, and is the only reason this thread is still alive.

JLo would make a hell of a PG.

 

Post of the friggin' year.

 

As recent memory serves me, and correct me if i'm wrong, the last NBA Champion that won a title with a pass first PG was Detroit Pistons. Isiah, Dumars, and the "Microwave" killing people with deadly jumpers while the "Bad Boys" beat you silly. Now after that the Bulls, Rockets, Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers have won titles. Aside from Magic being on the Lakers I can't think of a pass first point that really made a difference in winning an NBA title. I just feel that Ming should become a more focal point in the offense. I guess the team needs more time in trusting him and his skills.

 

I have to disagree with ya' on this one too Trep. The Rox were above .500 team in 2001-2002 when the starting five consisted of :

Steve Francis - who at this time wasn't scoring as much as he is now.
Cuttino Mobley - same as Steve
Shandon Anderson - Not even going to go there
Mo Taylor - was a more consistent then
Hakeem - it became evident that he was past his prime (did have a slight resurgance at the end of the season)
Bench:
WALT WILLIAMS
KENNY THOMAS
MOOCHIE NORRIS
MATT BULLARD
KELVIN CATO
CARLOS ROGERS
JASON COLLIER
DAN LANGHI
SEAN COLSON
ANTHONY MILLER

I submit that our current team, even minus Yao would be above .500:

Steve Francis - can not be stopped when he puts his mind to it
Cuttino Mobley - better scorer now, consistent mid-range shot.
Glen Rice - not much better than Shandon right now, but still an improvement
Eddie Griffin\Kenny Thomas\MoT - Not sure if the platooning experiment is working, but in depth alone we are better
Kelvin Cato - the new and improved Kelvin, rivals a past-his-prime Hakeem
Our Bench is definitely better now IMHO:
KENNY THOMAS
MAURICE TAYLOR
TITO MADDOX
MOOCHIE NORRIS
JUAQUIN HAWKINS
BOSTJAN NACHBAR
TERENCE MORRIS
JASON COLLIER

Don't get me wrong, I love Yao and our team is at a completely different level with him, but the team above is a .500 team.

 

Many of these teams had pass- first PG. Maybe they weren't very good, but they were important role players.

And how many shoot- first PG's have made it to the NBA Finals? Iverson was a SG.