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Rockets offense with Lin 'playmaking' out of PG position

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by mike_lu, Nov 19, 2012.

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  1. Arthurprescott2

    Arthurprescott2 Member

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    I suggested this like 7 games ago. At that time, you LOFers were on my back about Lin needing to be a starter. Changed your mind now?
     
    #21 Arthurprescott2, Nov 19, 2012
  2. AdrenaLINe

    AdrenaLINe Rookie

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    there were lots of guys not named Howard... that were having good nights...

    thats because if or guys did not cheat off their men... and try to help out on Howard he would have gone off on us even more...
     
    #22 AdrenaLINe, Nov 19, 2012
  3. AdrenaLINe

    AdrenaLINe Rookie

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    please, most LOFs dont care if Lin starts or not...of course you are going to say it without proof


    this goes back to when he was on the Knicks...

    when Melo came back at the height of Linsanity...

    most were calling for Lin to play with the bench...
     
    #23 AdrenaLINe, Nov 19, 2012
  4. mike_lu

    mike_lu Member

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    Really? Have you seen TD's defensive stat vs Lin's?

    Or how TD ran the offense in OT? Really? Or TD's shooting percentages vs Lin this year? Really?
     
    #24 mike_lu, Nov 19, 2012
  5. AggNRox

    AggNRox Member

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    i have an impression. sometimes, lin was thinking too much about his pg duty and getting his teammates involved. when he attacked the rim, he looked for every opportunaty to pass. layup seems to him is the last option. some in-out passes look awkful.
     
    #25 AggNRox, Nov 19, 2012
  6. AdrenaLINe

    AdrenaLINe Rookie

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    most LOFs are just not happy at how Lin is being utilized

    having him spot up and shoot 3s is the worst thing you can do...

    and I understand what the team is trying to do even though I know it will take him time to develop into an acceptable spot up shooter or if he ever does...


    only question is will the team allow him the time to do that...

    because we know the haters on this board wont...
     
    #26 AdrenaLINe, Nov 19, 2012
  7. Jenopogi

    Jenopogi Contributing Member

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    If I remember, I did not post counter to your post. If you refer to majority of LOFs, then I let it go. Just don't "quote" me and address me as if we are talking about this 7 games ago. I find it "discomforting". I have read your posts here, you are an OK guy. Just don't do this again to me.

    Yeah, I am a Lin fan, I am also a realist. I don't follow blindly.
     
    #27 Jenopogi, Nov 19, 2012
  8. Jenopogi

    Jenopogi Contributing Member

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    Yes, Mike, really. I guess you do not understand my point. Torocan has pulled-up a lot of stats already (which are really nice btw - props to Torocan), so spare me those. I am not saying TD is good, heck he does not even have significant PT in the Knicks. If we have a better back-up, then we would be in a better position. But yeah, Lin better be 6th man. Harden and him doing PG does not end well. Harden dominates, as simple as that, he tends to run the point. As I have written on the Rockets vs Jazz thread. Harden, Morris, Parson, PPat, Asik to start (no TD is not starter, he is a filler). Lin 6th man running the 2nd unit with Delfino, TJones, Smith or whoever. End-games, play the better guys, if it is Harden + Lin - so be it.
     
    #28 Jenopogi, Nov 19, 2012
  9. mike_lu

    mike_lu Member

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    If I can make a kind suggestion AdrenaLINe. Don't go with the 'opinions' on this site. Just go with 'hard facts and data'. If you don't know them, dig them up. Because opinions are subjective, and what most of LOHs have left. They will in MOST CASES stay away from any discussion about Lin (and about How the Rockets do with vs without-Lin) when data is presented, or just ignore them, only to go to another thread and argue their not-backed-up-by-data opinion over and over again when the data isn't presented there.

    Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Even after data is presented contrary to their opinion. And that's fine (really). But the only thing that really counts, over time, is what is backed up by data.

    I mean after a thread that details how TD ran the offense for the last 8 min 16 sec of the game against POR, and with links to show Lin only responsible for 2 of the 11 points scored by Lillard, or with frequent links showing Lin vs Douglas's synergy defensive stats, or ESPN a click away on Lin vs Douglas FG% stats, some people will still have the opinion that Douglas should be in there for OT because he is a better defender and shooter (and perhaps even decision maker). And that's fine, because it is their opinion. It has no factual backing, but just let it be. With time and data, maybe they will awake to it one day, or just be amongst the last to not do so.
     
    #29 mike_lu, Nov 19, 2012
  10. AdrenaLINe

    AdrenaLINe Rookie

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    I usually ask guys who use LOF as a blanket statement to find me even 1 LOF quote to support their contention LOF fans are saying this or that...

    I have yet to hear a reply back...


    like I said when Lin wasnt put back in that overtime loss... I did not really want him back in anyways...I didnt even argue it

    as he would have been useless out there camping and waiting to shoot a 3 ball...

    I was actually arguing with people complaining that it was just LOFs who wanted Lin back in the game...

    as it turned out it was more than a just 2012ers LOFs or what ever you want to call us...calling for Lin to go back into the game...


    as for Lin playing with the second unit... im all for it... if it means we see Lin's real game....

    as for the complaining.... I am willing to bet it was long time Rox fans up in arms

    about paying a guy 25 million to come off the bench...


    most haters need to understand this....most LOF fans understand Lin needs to develop as a player... we dont think he is gods gift to basketball.. or the best player ever and ever and ever...

    we think he is a good young player with POTENTIAL thats it...
     
    #30 AdrenaLINe, Nov 19, 2012
  11. Arthurprescott2

    Arthurprescott2 Member

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    Sorry to single you out - did not mean to do so - your post was just convenient to quote.

    But into the 3rd game - it was clear that Lin was being used as a spot-up shooter cause they wanted Harden to be the primary ball-handler. My suggestion at the time was since back-up PG position is so weak and the TD/Harden pairing seems to work that Lin come off the bench as 6th man. That way he's not handcuffed, sitting behind the 3pt line and he can attack as much as he wants while giving the 2nd unit a boost.
     
    #31 Arthurprescott2, Nov 19, 2012
  12. AdrenaLINe

    AdrenaLINe Rookie

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    fair enough...
     
    #32 AdrenaLINe, Nov 19, 2012
  13. mike_lu

    mike_lu Member

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    Actually, the offense looked quite good when Lin was running point, 1st two games (interchangeably with Harden, admitted), and the last two games.

    Harden never dominated at OKC, the ball that is, and he only dominated the ball for 6 games here with pretty disastrous results I would say, where not only his efficiency went down, but the whole team also.

    He may prove otherwise, later, but so far not at all.

    So I don't get the part about Harden dominates, simple as that. He's only done it for 6 games, probably asked by the coaches to do so, and it wasn't pretty. I' sure he doesn't want to go back to shooting <20% from 3s (as in that 6 game stretch), or getting blocked 3 times in OT (imagine if that happened to Lin, philchit or whatever his username is will go on and on saying I never get blocked in my rec club games, man ... how can that guy be in the NBA ... maybe he needs to get laid even more or go to stripclubs every night to release tension) even if he gets to be dominant on the ball.
     
    #33 mike_lu, Nov 19, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  14. lfw

    lfw Rookie

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    The offense is still evolving. I notice less 3 point shots for Lin and 2Pat. There are more pick and pop plays last game with Lin and 2pat for 18-20 jumpers. Last 2 games, Lin has been more involved with initiating the offense so I think Lin is finally getting some plays put in for him in the playbook.

    No need to put Lin on the 2nd unit when the playbook is not even completely implemented.
     
    #34 lfw, Nov 19, 2012
  15. mike_lu

    mike_lu Member

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    Seriously. Even if you argue mostly about Lin, if you do it with hard data and good analysis, you'll get respect. Look at Torocan. Fellow 2012er, obviously here a large part because of Lin. He's great, amazing, and fairly widely acknowledged and respected. The likes of Tinman just looks the other way when Torocan posts, just to pick on people who post based on opinions because his will definitely be louder, and most loud casual fans can't tell a corner offense from a corner grocery store let alone whether a team is better when Lin plays vs when TD plays.

    Myself, I am Rockets fan first, been here since 2006. My username will make a lot of people think I'm LOF, but if they see my post history, they'll know I'm rockets first. But just sick and tired of the Lin bashing (or ignorance) here, so I try to present more data on Lin because he's more controversial.

    Data like if Lin made 1 more FG per game, at 45% FG%, he would be considered fine. That's a freaking 2 extra points per game, when he brings multiple times that to the table by playmaking, getting a combined 3-4 steals + blocks + charges taken per game, and getting close to 5 rebounds out of the PG position, or making the real 'quality' assists (not the Damian Lillard variety). And can Rockets fans really get past data that says when Lin is playing real PG, the Rockets are averaging 15.5 pts more than when he is not? And seriously say ... send him to the bench?

    Perhaps I'm a bit harsh here. But LOFs, if you read this, do yourself and your favorite player a favour by making smart data/fact-based posts with good analysis, and the LOHs will be left to simmer internally, because they certainly are only good with throwing out opinions backed-up only by tainted eye-tests. And never throw out the racist arguments again, please. Because it's not provable, and it's more likely they are dicks than racists.
     
    #35 mike_lu, Nov 19, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  16. Jenopogi

    Jenopogi Contributing Member

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    Yup, a dose of 1st 2 games and then everything slide downhill. Notice the difference? (sorry, I have no stats to back this up). Anyways, this is good convo. I am talking about the Harden Rockets, not the OKC Harden, they got WB who is more dominating, plus well, Durant. Rockets Harden tends to handle the ball, maybe he does not want to lose and wanted to take matters into himself, maybe it is the coaches. Point is, as what AdrenaLine and Arthur pointed out (or maybe what you are referring as OP on this thread) - Harden and Lin as of the past 6 games (as you pointed out), does not mix well. We don't have Durant or LBJ or KObe or some big shot All Star on the team. They are surrounded by good players. Harden with the blessing of a max contract felt obligated to make this happen - which clash Lin's talent of being a PG. Thus, until they get another biggie, let Lin handle being the 6th man, Harden can run the starters. Harden and Lin in end-games.
     
    #36 Jenopogi, Nov 19, 2012
  17. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    Actually the offensive progression has been very predictable. If you completely trash preseason offensive development by obtaining one of the best shooting guards in the game three days before regular season what do you do? You put the ball into the max contract's hands and tell him to earn his money. Then you gradually incorporate the rest of the team members along with a cogent offensive strategy. Adjusted daily. And that is what we have seen.

    What is next? Development, refinement, practice, integrate rookies, find optimal rotations, etc. That is where the team is now. Morey has that max contract in his back pocket and that is where the next big improvement is going to come from. What Morey has done is infinitely better than losing games and hoping for a lucky ping pong ball.
     
    #37 jtr, Nov 19, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jenopogi

    Jenopogi Contributing Member

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    Nicely Said. Yep. Agree.
     
    #38 Jenopogi, Nov 19, 2012
  19. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    the only person who hates Jeremy Lin is the Rim.
     
    #39 tinman, Nov 19, 2012
  20. kastuul

    kastuul Member

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    SG Harden should be spot up shooter, not LIN.
     
    #40 kastuul, Nov 19, 2012
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